I am doing this Thread after seeing some comments in another, I am lucky to be in a rock solid PCA congregation, and I do hope the discourse is done in Christian charity and is reasonable rather than a Question, does the PCA "truly" have more problems than other conservative, orthodox Presbyterian Bodies, OR, are the problems in my beloved PCA "magnified" for lack of a better word, by the fact that the PCA now numbers around 300,000 members? I might be a little biased but my inclination is the latter. Did the Lord not warn that the Enemy sows Tares among the wheat, and if so in a "large field" we will in point of fact see this perhaps more clearly? What say ye my Brethren?

__________________
~etexas~

I'm thinking about posting a detailed account of my PCA Church Trial. I figure if I do it with no names, and no guessing motivation, and only post things that are public anyway is should be allowed by the rules here. That would give an idea of what is currently practiced in the PCA, in terms of WCF standards, BCO standards, etc...

Look for a separate thread, which will start with me complaining about a young man who refused to baptise his two infants and was himself never baptised being ordained as an officer in the PCA, made "Coordinator of Missions" and ended up me being called Demon possessed by the Pastor from the pulpit, and the local leadership of the Northern California Presbytery supporting him.

__________________
Tim Vaughan, 48 years old, member Redeemer OPC, Santa Maria CA.

Okay, okay.
It's like this, IMHO. All churches will have problems. All congregations will have problems, and the presbyteries and general assemblies too, because we are sinful and the devil is always trying to destroy the witness of the church in the world and to discourage members of the invisible Church. (Believe me, it can get personally very discouraging, I know from experience!) The church will always be like this until the return of Christ, then we'll find out what is was supposed to be like.

I don't think the PCA is any worse-off than any other Reformed denomination. The only one I'd really be worried about is the CREC, because so many who couldn't get their theology past the governing bodies of their denominations have taken refuge there.

__________________
The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

and Amen!

__________________
~etexas~

__________________
Sterling Harmon
Coventry, CT
PCA
Deacon
________________

"Whatever is laudable in our works proceeds from the grace of God."
-- John Calvin, Institutes III:xv.3.

"Our Lord God must be a good man, to be fond of worthless fellows. I cannot like them, and yet I, myself, am one."
-- Martin Luther, Table Talk

__________________
~etexas~

IMHO, there are a lot of issues that are treated within liberty of conscience in the PCA, which should be so treated, that would have binding rules one way or the other in, say, the OPC.

This is anecdotal, but one time in nominating men for office in my former OPC church, I was told by the then-pastor that he would not support candidates who smoked or were in his opinion too fat.

I'm sorry, but I couldn't find anything on things like that in the Biblical criteria for office.

__________________

HaigLaw, ruling elder
Grace PCA, Shreveport, LA
http://www.xanga.com/HaigLaw

LOL. I have met some pretty good "chunky" Pastors in my day.

__________________
~etexas~

Well, I can't be an elder anyway, so I might as well have some cheescake! Or maybe a cigar?

__________________
The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

As far as the problems in the PCA I do believe they emerge from many of the same problems that hit our culture. Thanks to the powerful work of the Existentialists and the Romantics there has been a great emergence of the self and especially the interrogatory autonomy of the self that places self above the group in such a way that the group is no longer the driving force in the relationship. In other words the autonomous self is given power that it never had before in such a manner hat does not allow the individual to be convicted of the power and authority given to the body to make decisions and for lack of a better word control the life of the individual. I for one am a believer in the fact that democracy is dangerous and outright damaging within the context of the body of Christ.

__________________
Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA
Fairmount ARP Church, Sewickley, PA
Candidate Under Care Pittsburgh Theological Seminary & Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary

“If the Church could be aroused to a deeper sense of the glory that awaits her, she would enter with a warmer spirit into the struggles that are before her.”-- J.H. Thornwell

BP, are you saying that democracy is more at work in the PCA than the OPC; and if not, what was your point, as I fear I may have missed it?

__________________

HaigLaw, ruling elder
Grace PCA, Shreveport, LA
http://www.xanga.com/HaigLaw

In my limited experience of being involved the Reformed communities I have noticed several things. There seems to be tension amoung the more strongly confessional groups (Dutch Reformed, OPC, and true Reformed Baptists) and more mondern day calvinists who are confessional but are more open to disagreement (T4G types, PCA, Founder's movement, Sovereign Grace, ect...). Both are apart of the Reformed tradition but there are differences on cultural mentalities. I do think this is especially true in America and is growing in the UK and Australia. In America, in calvinistic evancelicism, there is the new groups and the old fundamentalist groups. There is friendly tension. We see this here on the board. I think the PCA is struggling with direction it want to be in. They don't want to be too much like the Sovereign grace people, they don't want to become the OPC, but they are afraid deathly (and rightly so) of returning to the PCUSA and becoming like them (even though there is no evidence so far of this by God's grace).

__________________
Joseph P. Grigoletti II
Lay-person
Église Réformée du Québec
Québec, Québec Canada

''Nothing is so sacred that Satan will not invade it. In fact, the more sacred something is, the more he desires to profane it.''
John MacArthur

My point was more the milieu of the American conscience than a specific denominational identity.

__________________
Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA
Fairmount ARP Church, Sewickley, PA
Candidate Under Care Pittsburgh Theological Seminary & Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary

“If the Church could be aroused to a deeper sense of the glory that awaits her, she would enter with a warmer spirit into the struggles that are before her.”-- J.H. Thornwell

I deleted my first post since it might have veered from the original purpose of the thread. I must have misunderstood. My apologies.

__________________
Jordan Harris
Dickson City, PA
Faith Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (ARP)
My Blog

Well glad you found your way to the ARP.

__________________
Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA
Fairmount ARP Church, Sewickley, PA
Candidate Under Care Pittsburgh Theological Seminary & Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary

“If the Church could be aroused to a deeper sense of the glory that awaits her, she would enter with a warmer spirit into the struggles that are before her.”-- J.H. Thornwell

Yes, good question, is it more of a problem in the PCA than other bodies OR is it more amplified given the sheer number of PCA Churches? I would for the sake of my Thread like to avoid the whole "I had a bad experience in a PCA Church." It undermines the broader focus of this, for every "bad" PCA church I could probably find 5 orthodox PCA bodies.

__________________
~etexas~

So we'll have to get to concrete examples.

__________________
Tim Vaughan, 48 years old, member Redeemer OPC, Santa Maria CA.

Well, Brother I am not trying to "smother" discourse OR downplay a bad PCA experience, that is outside of the focus of this thread, I am trying to deal with the PCA as a denomination in a broad sense. I hope you understand Brother.

__________________
~etexas~

Or maybe we could spend our Lord's Day preparation in a better fashion than trying to find out what is so horrible about various denominations. I could certainly give many examples of what is wrong with the PCA. I could very easily do the same with the OPC. It might not be the same things, but there would be things. So the ARP. So also the Presbyterian.... church or whatever.

Max, stop worrying. As you said, thank the Lord for where he has placed you now.

__________________
Fredrick T. Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
Christ Church Blog

"The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)

Fred, my Brother, I am not trying to find horrid things (you know me better) I think done in a proper way can edify and build understanding, that is actually a hope of this thread, with that in focus I can think of few ways better than preparing for Our Blessed Lord's Day, so long as this is conducted in true Christian Charity. Grace and Peace my Friend.

__________________
~etexas~

Pardon the social science observations of a Baptist who is supposedly a specialist in organizational behavior (with a genuine M.A. in the field too!). My intent is NOT to speak to the actual culture of the PCA (pretty presumptuous for a Baptist), merely to make some quick analytical observations about typical organizational behavior as it applies to the question being asked.

It is my understanding that the history of the PCA was constituted through a flight from more liberal denominations over issues such as inerrancy and Christology. Both in the original context of the early 70s and with the additions in the early 80s, the churches were mainly part of more liberal groups and wanted to keep their conservative identity. In this sense the ethos was shaped by a combination of the somewhat latitudinarian praxis in the parent bodies coupled with conservative theological convictions. Since then, the emphasis has been placed on expansion into suburban settings.

Judging by the originally more "relaxed" practice of the parent denominations and by the effort to penetrate the suburban American culture, it is not surprising that PCA congregations would be somewhat more open to "innovations" than some of the smaller and more insular Reformed denominations. Whether with the church growth movement of the 80s or the Willowcreek-ization of the evangelical church since then, "Shine Jesus Shine" approaches have become the currency of the land.

In my own group, which fairly recently broke away from a mainline denomination over issues of inspiration of the Bible and homosexuality, our experience may prove analogical, or at least instructive. As treasurer of the organization, I can testify to the fact that we work very hard NOT to be our ecclesiastical parent. However, some of the ethos, the practices, and elements of the corporate culture (or corporate DNA if you will) continued with us into the new body. Outside of the issues which led to our separation, we tend to be blind to other negative elements of the mainline group we emerged from.

Since the PCA grew out of disgruntled conservatives from more liberal groups and has been committed to an aggressive program of church expansion, it should not be surprising that so much of the "Shine Jesus Shine" approach has crept into the Presbyterian fold.

So, what implications can we draw from this mini-history in terms of the original question?

1. Groups involved in ecclesiastical splits (whether local congregations or larger groups) typically carry a bit of the pugilistic flavor of separtistic divisiveness with them. Such a negative ethos continues for a long time. That is why so many congregations that angrily split give rise to other congregations with problems of divisiveness.

2. On the other hand, the smaller Reformed groups tended to keep their identity, often shaped by ethnic factors, into the present. They were often more homogeneous and maintained their confessional identity as central to their corporate ethos. Groups such as this may be expected to objectify the "other" as an outsider to the tradition. Strangers would be suspect as possible threats to the tradition. Insofar as insiders behave like outsiders, they would likely be viewed as traitors or prodigals.

3. What do you expect? They are all Presbyterians, after all! Like Baptists, they are famous for their cantankerous inability to get along. It has something to do with deleterious impact of the fall on our volition and emotions, I think.

4. In addition to #3 above, the PCA might suffer from two negatives: the left over spirit of division they began with AND the unexamined openness to modern innovations "inherited" from their original denominations. Both of these realities can create problems in a congregation. The smaller Reformed bodies, being definitionally more insular, will be bedeviled by the irritating "know it all" spirit of criticism common to both Reformed expressions of Christianity and sociologically smaller bodies.

So, they both have problems! Welcome to the real world!

At this point, however, they ALL sound better than where I have come from! Better an intramural debate over details of the RPW or being EP than livng with apostates who ordain homosexuals and believe all roads lead to heaven!

__________________
Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?