I cant believe it, but here it is courtesy of the Evangelical Presbyterian Church's news page:



I dont want to step on anyones toes by posting this, but I thought I might share it because it suprised me. I was under the impression that this church (as a whole) was Reformed/Calvinist leaning but not committed to (non-essentials). Is this right? If so, why then would they then attend a prayer meeting with the pope!

I had a friend who'm was himself a member of this church who played a role in my coming out of Arminianism and dispensationalism. I wonder what my friend Bruce would say if he saw this?

thoughts on this?

__________________
Josiah Lovett
Member of
Trinity OPC Bothell Wa.
Orthodox Presbyterian Church
Westminster Standards

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

*sigh*

2nd Presbyterian Church (EPC) here in Memphis was the 1st church I attended after I converted. They struck me as fairly solid at the time. There were no female elders or deacons, the teaching elder was an unabashed monergist, and preached several sermons advocating a literal reading of Genesis. From him, I never got the impression that they sacrificed the "non essentials", but one congregation doesn't betray the hearts and minds of the denomination.

*sigh*

__________________
Andrew DeShazo, Deacon, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"All of us stumble in many ways, but if anyone is never at fault in what he says, then he is mature, able to control his whole body."(James 3:2)

Indeed. Even though I would never join the denomination as a whole, I definitely was always edified by the sound exegetical preaching I heard the few times I visited 2nd when I lived in Memphis. Even so, anymore I'm less and less surprised by pretty much anything I see going on in evangelical (or Roman Catholic) circles for that matter.

I'm also very thankful for the biblical, confessional liturgy faithfully followed for worship each week at the church I'm attending, since even in PCA, OPC and other Reformed and Presbyterian congregations, things like contemporary worship services are all-too-common anymore. So I'm not at all surprised that the EPC would support that prayer. I simply pray that God will somehow use it to His glory and the ultimate good of the Church, even if it is something so seemingly small as to cause surprise to certain EPC or other believers, and in turn result in them possibly rethinking their theology in more detail.

__________________
Chris


A passion to know and reflect Christ by living and demonstrating the truth and richness of the historic Reformed faith

Visit My Website Here

Christopher Blum
Member of Riveroaks Reformed Presbyterian Church (PCA) in Germantown, TN
Currently attending Trinity Presbyterian Church of Northern Kentucky (PCA) in Burlington, KY

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Thank you for this heads-up. I have forwarded it to EPC friends (this area served as a spawning ground for that church, as many here may know).

It's revolting. It's positively disgusting.

The next logical step is for members of the EPC to be encouraged to go out and buy rosaries - and make sure they pray them! I have a 40-year-old, pink crystal one, a gift from my grandmother, that I was either going to flush or drop from a substantial height. Not going to hand it off to some EPC member, though, even if rosaries soon become de rigueur in the EPC: I still care too much for the souls who are being deceived by office-holders in that church who think it's okay to pray with the "Vicar of Christ."

Good grief. What a horrible development in the EPC...

Margaret

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Margaret
Free Church of Scotland [Continuing]
Michigan

"He must increase, but I must decrease." - John 3:30

Noooooooooo!

Sadly, this doesn't surprise me, the fine record of 2nd Church Memphis notwithstanding (our son went there when he attended Rhodes College).

__________________
~Jay~
Husband of ENS, father of J II. | Indian Trail, NC
Teacher Aide, Union County Public Schools, NC
Communicant Member, Precentor | Presbyterian Reformed Church of Charlotte, NC | Presbyterian Reformed Church

The EPC, in my experience, is the broadest of the Broad Evangelical.

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Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA
Fairmount ARP Church
Student of Theology
Pittsburgh Theological Seminary
Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary
My Blog

"Nothing is sweet to me without the enjoyment of Christ in it." -- Thomas Brooks

All hail the ecumenical movement! We WILL all be of one belief with the Christ of our own choosing! Isn't that great news?

__________________
Bryan Wiley
Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
Reformed Baptist Church
Louisville, Kentucky

It sounds like 2nd is sort of an anomaly in the EPC, I wonder what keeps them from joining the OPC, ARP or the PCA?

Indeed, as am I thankful for it. I know that there are some minor elements of the OPC that stray a bit from the DPW. I believe that OPC is amending the DPW in certain places in order to clarify the church's possition on public worship.

I suppose my limited contact with friends in the EPC has sort of given me the impression that they are perhaps more or less as a whole united around reformed convictions and would never meet with the pope to pray (unless it was to pray for him). I think that you are right about this being a great opportunity for people in the EPC to re-think things a bit. That is my prayer anyway. I think that the EPC for all its difficulties ought to confront these issues, not defering to slogans about liberty in non-essentials and if they would do so they might make the right decisions at the GA and become a stronger church for it.

I served for 16 years as a teaching elder in the EPC. For me, it was an “ecclesiastical bridge” to a more a more confessional position. I was never asked to compromise my position as one on the Reformed and confessional fringes of the denomination. [BTW: When I met my wife she said, “You are the fringe of the EPC.”]

The EPC is a composite of different degrees of Reformed and Presbyterian congregations. The theological culture differs much from one presbytery to another. Central South, which includes Second Presbyterian in Memphis, is the most conservative. The Presbytery of the West has been one of the less Reformed and more “Essentialist” presbyteries. The denomination still has conservative men like Rob Norris of Fourth Presbyterian Church, Bethesda.

The EPC serves an important purpose for the present. Where else would “conservative” congregations departing the PCUSA go? Few of them would fit into the PCA or OPC. We don’t need another EPC like denomination. The EPC may serve as a “bridge” for some of them in transition. Some PCA congregations moving in the other direction may also find a home there. I certainly don’t understand why some departing the PCA have opted for the RCA over the EPC.

The EPC has created an inescapable handicap for themselves. Their constitution includes an non amendable provision allowing local congregations to decide if they will ordain women officers and presbyteries the option of ordaining or receiving women teaching elders. They can’t get out of this as the EPC. Their only option is for congregations to leave as congregations and join a more conservative denomination. This provision is a time bomb for them. When a denomination makes women’s ordination a mere culturally conditioned matter, Scripture is no longer unique and authoritative.

I value the many friends and fine Christians I knew in the EPC. They were supportive of me in some dark days when my late wife was dying and I was involved in a difficult ministry. I’m glad for my time spent with them. I’m sorry to see them becoming more “egalitarian” and “essentialist” rather than Reformed and confessional. But, many individuals and a few congregations may yet find themselves moving in that direction.

I’m content to be where I am presently in the OPC. I believe I’m the first and to this date only EPC teaching elder to move to the OPC.

I’m also disappointed to see leadership publicizing their meeting with the Anti-Christ. I was asked if I wanted to meet with the Dalai Lama when he came to Idaho a couple years ago. I responded, “I use to raise milk goats; but I don’t know much about llamas.”

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Glenn Ferrell
Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church
OPC
Boise, Idaho

Nor does one man's participation in this necessarily betray the hearts and minds of the denomination (even if he's the moderator-elect).

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Rae W. | Elder @ Grace Central Presbyterian Church | Columbus, OH
not another blog, v2.0

My thoughts on the matter are the same as Daniel's I cannot believe that their are congregations within the EPC that would not stand up and cry, ICABOD. What a departure from the gospel. I pray that the Lord would have mercy on them. I do not believe that a denomination that enters into this kind of thing is evangelical or Reformed.

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Stephen Welch
PCA Teaching Elder
Nova Scotia :cheers:

Yikes, he attended Rhodes?

As I understand it, Freshman year there is a crash course in trying to make you deny your faith in Christianity.

In encouraging news though, RUF has recently been allowed on their campus as an official student ministry.

They are a very, very old church here in town and Independent Presbyterian (PCA), of John Sartelle fame, is a split from them, iirc. If they joined the ARP, our membership in the Presbytery would double overnight as they have a few thousand in their membership.

Wow! Perhaps their presence in the EPC is good and indicative of the Lords work within that church. This is just a little but I have never seen more than perhaps 50 people coming to worship in a conservative Presbyterian church, so your mention of them having a few thousand in membership seems pretty unreal (although I am sure it is not)

Errr? Both 2nd and Independent have congregations well over 1,000 and both are conservative, Reformed, Presbyterian churches.

Now, they pale in comparison to Bellevue Baptist Church, the Arminian SBC mega-church with members in the 10,000's.

Now I know that I dont get out much!

Some historic data re: the EPC -

Current web site of the birthplace of the EPC: www.wardchurch.org. (It used to be just www.wardepc.org.) Their present interim - and much-loved - senior pastor is a Congregationalist who desperately seeks to turn Ward away from Reformed theology. How do I know? A dear and first-degree family member is there every Sunday...

I was a member of Ward for almost 9 years; loved Dr. Bartlett Hess; thought it was Reformed in those years. Found out through independent reading, study and talking to others of the Reformed persuasion that it was not.

In a nutshell, Ward is explicitly in the process of becoming a clone of NorthRidge Church: NorthRidge Church. NorthRidge has numbers, and that's what Ward wants. (Cf. 2 Samuel 24:10.) NorthRidge, before it moved to its fancy digs in Plymouth Twp., was Detroit's venerable old Temple Baptist, probably the most popular, and later popular African-American, church on the west side of Detroit. The current pastor, however, didn't want a "denominational assignment" in *his* church's name, and so Temple Baptist became "NorthRidge Church." Totally non-denominational, and thoroughly and unapologetically Arminian, CCM-singing...

Because of its geographical location and general (literal) Starbuck's ambience, NorthRidge, once settled in tony Plymouth from a fairly nice building just inside the Detroit city limits, quickly began to siphon people from Ward. Ward had a seismic upheaval in its administration in 2006, when its pastor was fired very publicly in the annual congregational meeting that over 2,000 people attended. A friend of mine described it to me... I still don't know what was really behind it; I do know that this pastor had solid Reformed credentials.

After that, and even before that happened, this birthplace of the EPC had been hemorrhaging profusely in membership and attendance. It had gone from about 5,600 members to around 2,500-3,000. Whatever to do? "Let's become like NorthRidge! That'll bring the people back!" And so it embarked upon that goal without further ado, jettisoning anyone who wanted to keep anything Reformed about it.

As Ward EPC goes, so will go the rest of the EPC, eventually. It's already happening.

"So sad to see good Reformed churches go bad..." And if you know what song I'm paraphrasing there, .

Margaret

Surprisingly he found a lot of support there, including his advisor. One of his other sources of encouragement was a weekly Bible study that was put on by Second Presbyterian.

Oh to be like Egypt.