Thread: Please discuss the role of women - in the church and out

I don't know where to post this - still learning the ropes! Move if necessary :-)

I only have a few minutes to ask this and then on to my kids!

I am really trying to work through all that I learned growing up about women in and out of the church. I am no longer in the church that I grew up in but time and again I have had to work through all that was ingrained in me.

I have trouble with all of these points in that some might have good general basis but then is taken too far.

General things we learned that I am wanting scriptural reasons for or against:

1) Women are never to speak in the church during public worship. (Including reading scripture, giving out a hymn, only singing)

2) Women are never to teach men. Period. (except in Sunday School - interesting lack of consistency)

3) Women are to be mentors to other women but only in the realm of loving your husbands, being keepers at home, and in regards to the children. Not doctrine or anything that pertains to teaching the Bible.

4) Women are to cover their heads in corporal gatherings including Bible studies at home with men around.

5) Women are not to teach doctrine. Parachurch organizations like BSF, Beth Moore groups etc. are not scriptural because they have one woman teaching doctrine to other women.

6) The only males women are to teach are their own children and perhaps in a small setting like Priscilla and Aquila with Apollos.

There's plenty more but I am so grieved writing this because of the restrictions that were placed on us over the years. We were limited to devotions, missionary ministries, serving food and cleaning the church and teaching Sunday school (they left teaching Sunday school to the women). I am interested in what your thoughts are. Just throw anything out there, I have a lot to work through!

See the short paper in the PB Theological Journal forum found here: The Place of Women in the Church. It might serve you as a good primer for further study.

1) Women are never to speak in the church during public worship. (Including reading scripture, giving out a hymn, only singing)

Not sure exactly what you mean by this sentence. Did your church have men other than the Pastor reading Scripture during the service? This would be inappropriate for either sex to do while the pastor is leading the service. The worship service isn't a free for all for men either. There needs to be order and the one who establishes that order is the pastor (or a male who is allowed to lead the service who might be taking the pastor's place for that service). "giving out a hymn" don't really know what you mean here, but did men in your service call out hymns they wanted sung during the worship service? Again, if this is what you mean, this would be extremely disorganized and the leader really wouldn't be leading...the male congregation would be....not cool. So, really men and women in the worship service are to listen to the pastor's reading of the Scripture and his preaching without interruption (nothing wrong with saying "amen" while he preaches....our Baptist brothers enjoy doing so). Women are to be silent in church in that they are not to teach men or give them direction or be over them in any fashion. However, women are allow to sing, say the creeds and Lord's Prayer etc. To be honest, the men of our congregation don't do anything different during the service than the women except for passing the Lord's Supper and the offering plate.

2) Women are never to teach men. Period. (except in Sunday School - interesting lack of consistency)

They really need to stick with "Period".... unacceptable for women to teach men in SS.

3) Women are to be mentors to other women but only in the realm of loving your husbands, being keepers at home, and in regards to the children. Not doctrine or anything that pertains to teaching the Bible.

Wrong!

4) Women are to cover their heads in corporal gatherings including Bible studies at home with men around.

Well, now we've got a problem with this one....there are no head coverings in my denomination (OPC) but there are some here who believe that women should cover their heads....so you won't get a definite answer on this one....do still have my packer's hat handy tho PRN.

5) Women are not to teach doctrine. Parachurch organizations like BSF, Beth Moore groups etc. are not scriptural because they have one woman teaching doctrine to other women.

Well, Beth Moore has her problems but it's not in the fact that she teaches women.

6) The only males women are to teach are their own children and perhaps in a small setting like Priscilla and Aquila with Apollos.

They may teach the Gospel to unbelieving males and females in order to spread the Gospel, but once that male takes an interest that female Gospel-spreader should direct them to a Bible believing church. They must teach their children doctrine (for instance in homeschooling etc) which is ultimately overseen by their husbands.

I agree with everything you're saying. I am studying/researching to have a solid scriptural basis for this. They have their own reasons why they believe this is the proper place / role for women. I believe it's taken out of context (one verse setting boundaries or 'musts' instead of principles and 'shoulds'.)

The church I came out of has no pastor, only elders. Worship consists of all the men participating in prayer, giving out a hymn, giving a word. It's not chaotic, it's quite calm and organized. They believe they are allowing the Holy Spirit to lead. I have different opinions on this. Also, the women cover their heads with veils. The only males the women taught were the Sunday school kids classes.

I wish there was something that systematically laid things out concerning specific women's ministry or roles. Is there a book like that that anyone can suggest?

Originally Posted by jules5solas

I agree with everything you're saying. I am studying/researching to have a solid scriptural basis for this. They have their own reasons why they believe this is the proper place / role for women. I believe it's taken out of context (one verse setting boundaries or 'musts' instead of principles and 'shoulds'.)

The church I came out of has no pastor, only elders. Worship consists of all the men participating in prayer, giving out a hymn, giving a word. It's not chaotic, it's quite calm and organized. They believe they are allowing the Holy Spirit to lead. I have different opinions on this. Also, the women cover their heads with veils. The only males the women taught were the Sunday school kids classes.

I wish there was something that systematically laid things out concerning specific women's ministry or roles. Is there a book like that that anyone can suggest?

Hi Julie!
You perhaps I can help you out with these questions.
You should have just asked LOL
Obviously, you know where I stand on the head covering issue but you would be better off have Angelica give you the full run down on the issue.
I have some books somewhere, they're all in boxes right now, dealing with the very issues that you have raised. I will try to find them for you. Would that be helpful?

So, give me a few pointers, Seminary Intern!

I know your stance on headcovering. However, what are the biblical reasons for holding to whatever view you hold. I am trying to get more input here!

The reason why I'm asking this is because I know someone who has asked the elders of his church to approve of him participating in BSF (Bible study fellowship) as a leader in the men's evening study. Because of the women teaching women issue, they said they cannot approve. So, it sparked a discussion.

I have to say that all the years I've been at this church has led me to be sensitive to the topic. However, I'd like to take a good look at it since it comes up here and there.

Well, now we've got a problem with this one....there are no head coverings in my denomination (OPC) but there are some here who believe that women should cover their heads....so you won't get a definite answer on this one....do still have my packer's hat handy tho PRN.

There are, of course head coverings in the OPC, my wife and daughter being two of those heads. (See Sarah's famous "Packer Hat" thread for further discussion

Seriously, though - many OPC'ers do cover, most don't. No one makes a big deal about it either way. Obey the Scriptures as best you can, as you (and your elders) understand them.

As far as SS goes,
I would say it isn't inconsistent for women to teach certain classes:

1) a women's class. Why? Titus 2:3-4

2) a children's SS class of boys and girls. Why? Because young children are under a woman's direct authority already--their mother. So, if they are already taught the Bible and doctrine by one (and Mom SHOULD be teaching them this--not just Dad's duty), then it isn't inconsistent to be taught by one in another context.

In the congregation, gathered for worship, women should do everything the congregation does together. But they shouldn't lead--which would be getting up and praying or reading. Those would be "leading" functions, which the rest of the people should be entering into corporately as followers.

As for being mentors, Acts 18:26 puts Priscilla ahead of Aquila, leading me to conclude at the very least when "they" were explaining to Apollos the way more accurately, she wasn't being a wallflower.

I won't comment much on headcoverings. There's enough material from women on this board to keep you reading for a long time, and coming to clear conclusions for yourself. Personally, my wife thinks it's proper for her to wear something in public worship. Not every reformed church or denomination takes a decided stance on this topic.

Parachurch ministries are a strange item. They don't seem envisioned by Christ or the Apostles anywhere. They usually exist so that no church can tell the founders or present leadership what to do. Practically, it's about control, and about being able to draw financial support from the broadest possible spectrum (unconstrained by a common belief-system).

That some have as their primary teacher a woman only suggests to me another reason for stepping outside the accountability structure of the church.

You may find the search function helpful in studying past threads on Puritan Board about this topic generally. (Search function is upper right, use a key word such as "women")

One recent thread that might be helpful on the topic of women teaching, preaching, exhorting as part of public (corporate) worship:Women 'Leading' in Public Worship

Here's one on whether the Bible qualifies women for church office of Deacon: A Biblical Argument for Men Only as Deacons

Here was a thread discussing a list of things women may and may not do biblically in the life of the visible church:Women can't be pastors, etc, but what about all of these others roles?

Regarding "head coverings" for women: Head Covering

I'll try and hazard an answer based on Scriptural principles, including the creation order, as best I understand it. My suggestion is you avail yourself of the many good postings on the threads about this topic, some of them very recent (see links above).

Sin and the fall has made men not want to do their role. It has made women not want to do their role. There is a beautiful complimentary role of men and women that patterns from the creation order.

Those who are married often come to understand this, though imperfectly, and though there is difficulty in this world because of sin, what a wonderful thing it is when a man and woman work together in a complementary way, in Christ!

It is based on both being worthy of respect as made in the image of God. That doesn't mean God has not established authority relationships, which are really accountabilities upon which men and women will be judged.

That should not surprise us, nor that our culture today more and more reflects confusion about this, and while promising "equality" curiously is having the effect of devaluing the dignity of both men and women. Sin, rebellion, and God giving us over to our darkened imaginations result when we do not follow God's Word. Confusion, disorder and disturbance follow (though the world, flesh and devil say "equality" peace and freedom). Big topic

Originally Posted by jules5solas

I don't know where to post this - still learning the ropes! Move if necessary :-)

I only have a few minutes to ask this and then on to my kids!

I am really trying to work through all that I learned growing up about women in and out of the church. I am no longer in the church that I grew up in but time and again I have had to work through all that was ingrained in me.

I have trouble with all of these points in that some might have good general basis but then is taken too far.

General things we learned that I am wanting scriptural reasons for or against:

1) Women are never to speak in the church during public worship. (Including reading scripture, giving out a hymn, only singing)
Women should not teach, preach or exhort as part of public worship. Men are set by God to lead in this way as befits both the creation order pattern and specific Scripture (e.g. qualifying men as ministers, bishops, deacons, elders).

My understanding is women may speak informally, responsively, incidentally, certainly sing, pray responsively, be in choir, band, etc. While I think ordinarily a man ought lead a choir, band, etc. a woman might do that if she does not exhort or teach as part of it.

2) Women are never to teach men. Period. (except in Sunday School - interesting lack of consistency)
Women are not to teach men in church in the sense of leading men or mixed adult groups of men or women. Women teach other women, and while some may not agree here, I understand may teach young children. Women "teach" and "lead" by example in many ways, however.

3) Women are to be mentors to other women but only in the realm of loving your husbands, being keepers at home, and in regards to the children. Not doctrine or anything that pertains to teaching the Bible.
Titus 2 specifically has a place for more mature women teaching younger women, for example. I do not understand it to be limited to that.

4) Women are to cover their heads in corporal gatherings including Bible studies at home with men around.
Frankly, I had never heard of this until Puritan Board about a year ago. (Only then recalling my grandmother had worn a hat in church). You may find some of the thread discussions about this helpful. Some of the threads have been long and passionate, as well as informative.

5) Women are not to teach doctrine. Parachurch organizations like BSF, Beth Moore groups etc. are not scriptural because they have one woman teaching doctrine to other women.
As a general proposition, women may teach other women. Beth Moore's theology might be a separate matter. Women and men ought to be availing themselves of the ordinary means of grace, e.g. preaching and teaching through officers (male) God has called through the local church, however.

I have never thought of parachurch organizations as inherently unbiblical but there have been some good discussions about this on Puritan Board (use search function above, upper right). "Para" church does not replace the local church.


6) The only males women are to teach are their own children and perhaps in a small setting like Priscilla and Aquila with Apollos.
Women may teach young children generally and I think informally as you seem to be describing.

There's plenty more but I am so grieved writing this because of the restrictions that were placed on us over the years. We were limited to devotions, missionary ministries, serving food and cleaning the church and teaching Sunday school (they left teaching Sunday school to the women). I am interested in what your thoughts are. Just throw anything out there, I have a lot to work through!

There is so much to be done in the local church through mercy and helps for both men and women, no one who is seeking God should feel limited or need to usurp authority. There are so many needs.

Originally Posted by jules5solas

There's plenty more but I am so grieved writing this because of the restrictions that were placed on us over the years. We were limited to devotions, missionary ministries, serving food and cleaning the church and teaching Sunday school (they left teaching Sunday school to the women).[...]

You might feel restricted now, but a prayerful petition for God to show you the places where you might Biblically serve may uncover some areas of church life that provide many challenging opportunities. There are many areas of great importance that although they are not part of formal/official teaching and leadership, are nonetheless crucial for a healthy local church body.

As such, it's not so much of 'restriction' as it is "don't look there...look here - see how much there is to do?".

Have you considered this verse?

Tit 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Tit 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Tit 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

No matter whether you find yourself on the end of mentor or protege, there is enough here to challenge one greatly for years and years. Being part of these behind-the-scenes relationships is a very worthwhile part of the church body.

I myself am not in formal ministry, but the current burden on my heart is to encourage people to engage in deep and meaningful theological discussions. And it is exceedingly difficult! This is a function that is available to men and women both.

Blessings to you! All Christians have a role to play.

1Co 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
1Co 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

Women are a wonderful creation of God and very important - as important as men.

In the family they are equal but subordinate to their husbands. Children are equal but subordinate to their father and mother. This reflects the order within the Holy Triunity.

Since the church is the family of God, this order is also reflected in the church.

The outworking of this in society will naturally lead to certain roles for men and women, although the Bible seems to be more open on women taking leading roles in society e.g. being queens. Although I've still to read Knox's "First Blast" to see what he says.

In Heaven some (many) women will shine with more glory than the men, because they have been more godly and fruitful on earth, and some sisters outshine their brothers already. In that sense there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, male and female in the church. There are mysteries there about what we shall yet be in Heaven, where there is no marriage or giving in marriage.

This is a good book on the subject:-

[ame="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Recovering-Biblical-Manhood-Womanhood-Evangelical/dp/185684045X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248783610&sr=1-1"]Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood: Reponse to Evangelical Feminism: Amazon.co.uk: John Piper, Wayne Grudem: Books[/ame]

I thought the purpose of women was to help their husband fulfill his duties in a supporting capacity.

Originally Posted by SolaScriptura

I thought the purpose of women was to help their husband fulfill his duties in a supporting capacity.

I'm hoping that this is a little tongue in cheek, because you've completely left out single women and widows.

Furthermore, I would contend that the purpose of women is to "glorify God and enjoy him forever." How exactly we do that can be discussed at length, but to reduce the entire purpose of women to "help their husband" seems a bit simplistic.

In regard to women teaching men, I think there's a lot of inconsistency and not just in Sunday School.

For example, consider this board. There are lots of women and also men. There are even pastors and elders.

Now suppose we were discussing something theological, and, in a rare moment of insight, I said something profound. (Hey, shut up. It could happen. ) It's is theoretically possible that somebody here could learn something from what I said. Some pastor might even say, "Huh! I could use that as a sermon illustration!" (Ok, now I'm seriously flattering myself. But it's just to make a point). So whenever women and men are permitted to be around each other and both speak, generally men are likely to learn something from the women (and women learn from the men also, of course, but that isn't the disputed direction of education).

I have been to churches before where women aren't allowed to say much of anything even just in conversation lest they 'teach men'. (Needless to say, I didn't fit in well there, on account of my apparent inability to be quiet). But clearly, that isn't the rule in Reformed churches. So is the rule that women just aren't allowed to teach men in a FORMAL setting?

I was talking to my good friend, Jay, about this over a cigar the other day. He's a PCA elder and a fellow Marine that works with me so we get to talk a wide variety of topics. He just shared with me that one of their Deacons will be leaving their PCA Church because he's come to the conviction that women should be allowed to do anything a man can do.

As I've thought about this issue, it seems to me that to debate the issue of "how much can a woman do" or "why can't a woman do whatever a man does" is sometimes pointless because the underlying issue is a misunderstanding of the nature of the Body of Christ.

There's an implied sense (and it's probably borne out of leaders who act this way as well) that people are missing out on all the really "cool jobs" if they can't teach or lead in prayer or be a Deacon or have some other title of responsibility.

The Scriptures, however, do not elevate a man to a position in order to reward him but in order to be of service to the broader Body of Christ. When I hear about these debates the objections are never couched on "...it's a shame because Christ's Church is being spiritually impoverished because it is not allowing women to do everything men can do...." Rather, there is a certain indignation that arises out of another concern.

Frankly, until the debate is couched in the proper terms and why Christ gifts His Church, there's really no point in getting into specifics as to what roles women fulfill toward that end.

For my own part, I understand the desire (in my flesh) to stand out but, as a Christian, I am much more concerned that the entire Body be built up and that all of us strive and fear together and press in for the Day of salvation is Today. If I'm used of Christ and His Church toward that end then God be praised but I've also been used enough to know that there's nothing really glamorous when you're committed to the right end. There's much sorrow and grief and toil associated with it. Joy, of course, but I would never seek it out simply so I can stand out.

He just shared with me that one of their Deacons will be leaving their PCA Church because he's come to the conviction that women should be allowed to do anything a man can do.

I actually think that demeans the dignity of women -- it defines our usefulness and value in terms of 'what a man can do'.

Caroline, I think the Biblical teaching would be not that we shouldn't learn from each other and as you say that men can't learn from women; but as Rich points out that there are different roles and gifts for those roles in the church; and a woman's role in the church isn't that of publicly (formally, as regards 'having the floor' or being elected to leadership etc) teaching or ruling men?

I have struggled with this in the past and then I opened my eyes to the needs of the church around me... I can't preach or pass out communion but I have compassion that my husband simply doesn't... when the boys scrape a knee the come crying to me.. why? Because my husband says 'aww rub some dirt in it and then walk it off... blood (or whatever is fitting for the moment) grows hair on your chest' I give kisses and band aids and I listen patiently to what happened. I know that there are people in my church that need that same compassion... there is always a need...like a Meals for Mothers, how many women would love a weeks worth of dinners delivered hot and to their front door at 6pm the week or so after a baby is born? that takes planing and organizing... Or what about counciling at the local pregnancy crisis center? Or reaching out to the homeless in your area? we don't like to think of them but they are there.... and they are tired hungry and hopeless... we can clothe them and feed them and tell them the love and hope of Christ. How then if you are doing all this can you think that we women are being restricted? Frankly if you are able to do all this and keep your house up and your children clean and smart, and you are still feeling restricted you need to examine your heart. because I think if you were organizing and doing all that You would welcome the break on Sunday where the men do all the "work". We give and give and give... all week long we need a time every week where we get to come and "fill up" spiritually. I hope that helps....
and just a side note... I used to feel like you and then God opened my eyes to all the other things I could be doing and then He laid on my heart a real desire to master one thing at a time and so now I am home cleaning, cooking. homeschooling the boys, having a baby and am about to embark on raising chickiens. I want so desprately to help out but really... I'm to busyLOL

Amen Sister.

One of the most touching scenes in Scripture is when the widows, overcome with grief over the death of Dorcas, can probably not speak a word but simply lay the clothes that she made for them at Peter's feet. It's as if that's all the testimony of the love of a Saint needs. We focus on the title, Servant, where the accent is on the love she demonstrated to the Church.

Peter, by the power of God, brought her back to life and in this magnificent act of compassion restores her to the Church that love her so much. Leadership and service don't always require titles or honoraria. Such things arise out of the compassion and commitment shown by men and women that love Christ. Those that fret about being "named" for such service are missing the point.

My wife is one of the sweetest, most accepting people I've ever met. She's a hugger. She's compassionate. She notices when someone is left out. She notices when someone's countenance is downcast. She loves on our kids in ways I can't. I joy over seeing my youngest run up to her in the morning with a smile on his face so he can give Mom a hug.

Thank God for women. Life would be lonely and despondent and incomplete without them. God did us a great service in giving them to us. Perhaps the honor they deserve is not given them (as the vessels God gave us) and the desire to be honored ends up manifesting itself in other ways....

Rich, I'm out of my thanks again -- thank you.

Julie I reread your opening post:

There's plenty more but I am so grieved writing this because of the restrictions that were placed on us over the years. We were limited to devotions, missionary ministries, serving food and cleaning the church and teaching Sunday school (they left teaching Sunday school to the women.

It seems the church you were in was devaluing these things (at the least, some of the other points you bring up don't speak of a biblical balance in what you were taught about a woman's place), putting them off on the women as a restricted place that perhaps wasn't for whatever reason good enough for men (as with the Sunday School teaching). But God certainly does not devalue them.

I thought the purpose of women was to help their husband fulfill his duties in a supporting capacity.

E.g. the woman of Proverbs 31, "God's Bionic Superwoman" or "Swiss Army Wife"

I'm sure that independent-minded and yet godly woman would have had plenty of wise advice to give to her husband and other men - if that was culturally acceptable then.

Like the woman in Proverbs 31, Lydia had her own business. She also appears to be the head of the household; at least we don't read of a husband.

Priscilla (along with Aquila) taught Apollos the faith more accurately.

Women have plenty to do, although they must recognise their place in home, church and society, as must men.

If Christian women and men forget their place and roles they are being influenced by humanism, feminism, and also existentialism, which teaches that existence comes before essence. I.e. that we are in no way to allow ourselves to be defined by God or by who God made us; if we're women it doesn't matter if we want to act like men, or if we're men it doesn't matter if we want to act like women. According to atheistic existential thought we can define our essence in whatever way we wish.

In Christ we must glorify God by acting as we were created to be, Christian men or Christian women.

The Triune Image of God in Man is glorified when men, women and children, all equally made in God's Image, compliment each other in their different roles in family, church and society.

The Image of the Triune God must be preserved in God's family, the Church, against all feminist encroachments. We were saved to glorify the Triune God in this way. Women preaching to mixed classes/congregations, female ministers, elders and ordained deaconesses, etc, etc, i.e. women exercising authority over men in the church, goes against this.

If Christian women and men forget their place and roles they are being influenced by humanism, feminism, and also existentialism, which teaches that existence comes before essence. I.e. that we are in no way to allow ourselves to be defined by God or by who God made us; if we're women it doesn't matter if we want to act like men, or if we're men it doesn't matter if we want to act like women. According to atheistic existential thought we can define our essence in whatever way we wish.

I've sometimes felt that the labels I used to think most 'generic' as in woman, wife, mother, etc are most deeply defining of who one turns out to be: I suppose that is because our individuality was created precisely to fill such roles. It's ironic that we are being false not just to God but to our own selves when we advocate throwing out all roles and 'being true to ourselves' -- defining what self we are apart from what we were created to be.

Originally Posted by Richard Tallach

This is a good book on the subject:-

Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood: Reponse to Evangelical Feminism: Amazon.co.uk: John Piper, Wayne Grudem: Books

Reading this! It has some very good and helpful articles in there.

Originally Posted by Contra_Mundum

Parachurch ministries are a strange item. They don't seem envisioned by Christ or the Apostles anywhere. They usually exist so that no church can tell the founders or present leadership what to do. Practically, it's about control, and about being able to draw financial support from the broadest possible spectrum (unconstrained by a common belief-system).

That some have as their primary teacher a woman only suggests to me another reason for stepping outside the accountability structure of the church.

I disagree with the generalization about the intentions of parachurch organizations. I agree that there are not explicit examples in Scripture of this sort of organization but it doesn't mean that some of Christ's mandates wouldn't develop into organizing ministries that serve the community in various ways. I do agree that they should be under the umbrella of a local assembly in order to have accountability and leadership. However, to say that they 'usually exist so that no church can tell the founders or present leadership what to do' undermines the good intentions of their origins.

All that to say, I agree too that we need to use caution as to the function of an organization. I'll say more on this later. Thank you very much for your input!

-----Added 7/28/2009 at 08:25:11 EST-----

Originally Posted by Caroline

In regard to women teaching men, I think there's a lot of inconsistency and not just in Sunday School.

For example, consider this board. There are lots of women and also men. There are even pastors and elders.

Now suppose we were discussing something theological, and, in a rare moment of insight, I said something profound. (Hey, shut up. It could happen. ) It's is theoretically possible that somebody here could learn something from what I said. Some pastor might even say, "Huh! I could use that as a sermon illustration!" (Ok, now I'm seriously flattering myself. But it's just to make a point). So whenever women and men are permitted to be around each other and both speak, generally men are likely to learn something from the women (and women learn from the men also, of course, but that isn't the disputed direction of education).

I have been to churches before where women aren't allowed to say much of anything even just in conversation lest they 'teach men'. (Needless to say, I didn't fit in well there, on account of my apparent inability to be quiet). But clearly, that isn't the rule in Reformed churches. So is the rule that women just aren't allowed to teach men in a FORMAL setting?

Caroline, I've often thought this. As we were not encouraged to discuss doctrine, I always thought of how impossible that is as it comes out of the overflow of my heart! How glorious are the doctrines of God and how rich and deep the scope of it! It is worth finding out! Whenever I asked any questions, I would be met with quite a short answer and then move on to talk about 'how is homeschooling going? how's your mom and dad?' etc. In other words, you shouldn't think too deeply about these things. It was very discouraging. Especially when the Lord was revealing great and troubling things in His word regarding the doctrines of grace, I could not turn to the elders for questions (esp. if my husband didn't have the answer - we were on this journey together). But anytime there was a discussion and I asked a question, it would be frowned upon.

I see that 'teaching' is in the sense of a more formal instruction in a church setting or as someone who is in authority. It would be different than 'teach' in the sense that you shared information that was new to someone else so they 'learned'. Does that make sense?

Originally Posted by Honor

I have struggled with this in the past and then I opened my eyes to the needs of the church around me... I can't preach or pass out communion but I have compassion that my husband simply doesn't... when the boys scrape a knee the come crying to me.. why? ... How then if you are doing all this can you think that we women are being restricted? Frankly if you are able to do all this and keep your house up and your children clean and smart, and you are still feeling restricted you need to examine your heart. because I think if you were organizing and doing all that You would welcome the break on Sunday where the men do all the "work". We give and give and give... all week long we need a time every week where we get to come and "fill up" spiritually. I hope that helps....
and just a side note... [COLOR="rgb(139, 0, 0)"]I used to feel like you[/COLOR] and then God opened my eyes to all the other things I could be doing and then He laid on my heart a real desire to master one thing at a time and so now I am home cleaning, cooking. homeschooling the boys, having a baby and am about to embark on raising chickiens. I want so desprately to help out but really... I'm to busyLOL

Honor,
I appreciate your reply but I think you're misunderstanding what I'm trying to find out. My question was posted in a rush so I couldn't really elaborate and now that I re-read it, its limited explanation could make one think that I wanted more equality for women and more glamorous roles (as one person put it). That is certainly not the case. What grieved me was that women were not encouraged to really dig into the deeper doctrines in Scripture. That's where I felt limited. Questions were answered with mere 'elementary' responses where you're left thinking, 'Yes, I KNOW that but give me more!'

Secondly, I completely agree on our primary role as women to be keepers at home! I have four needy and eager young ones who I homeschool. It is truly a full-time job! However, we can get so caught up with our own families that we don't find time to minister to others - but have time to do something that might not be quite as productive. (not saying in a judgmental way as I certainly praise you for all that you do!)

I want to state what I think right now and then ask a few questions. Sorry this is ending up sooooo long!!!

Here's my stance:
* I see that God created man and woman as two very distinct creatures. As many in reformed circles are emphasizing, men and women were created to be complementarian rather than equal as the world knows it.

* Women are not to take the role of elder, pastor, teacher over men, and arguably, deacons. We are, however, able to help our husbands (my husband is a deacon) and that often requires being the hands and feet (and secretary and organizer - and sometimes advisor!) to or for them. However, we, in no way, replace our husbands in those leadership roles.

* Women are not to speak authoritatively on biblical doctrine where men are also congregating. I'm starting to think that we need to be cautious but not totally discount 'parachurch' organizations where the women are teaching very systematically and authoritatively other women. I think under the leadership and approval of your local church, a Bible study, for instance, in your neighborhood, might be ok - even if it mainly consists of those who don't go to your church. Any input here?

* Women are called by God to serve the body of believers as He equips and gifts us. Women should not ask, 'What are my spiritual gifts?" Rather, the question should be, "Where is there a need and what can I do to fill it?"

* Women have so much they can do even if they are not in public roles or church offices. In fact, public church offices are not the place for women. God has given women a special gift and capacity to be compassionate, kind, gracious, sensitive, sympathetic and patient. Often while ministering to others, women are given the opportunity to wisely explain what Scripture says concerning ______ (fill in the blank). Often, one cannot help but bring doctrine into the picture - as I often speak of the Sovereignty of God in suffering, circumstances, salvation or biblical manhood and womanhood, marriage, submission. If a woman does not study to show herself approved, she cannot teach a younger (in age or spiritual maturity) woman what Titus 2 entreats us to.

* Women are not restricted to talking about baking, cleaning, loving our husbands, knitting and whatnot. There's nothing wrong with women discussing theology even in other settings (like when friends come over for dinner or when we have informal gatherings somewhere).

I'll post my questions separately! This is getting too wordy!

-----Added 7/28/2009 at 09:00:40 EST-----

Originally Posted by Semper Fidelis

My wife is one of the sweetest, most accepting people I've ever met. She's a hugger. She's compassionate. She notices when someone is left out. She notices when someone's countenance is downcast. She loves on our kids in ways I can't. I joy over seeing my youngest run up to her in the morning with a smile on his face so he can give Mom a hug.

Thank God for women. Life would be lonely and despondent and incomplete without them. God did us a great service in giving them to us. Perhaps the honor they deserve is not given them (as the vessels God gave us) and the desire to be honored ends up manifesting itself in other ways....

How wonderful to praise your wife (in the gates!). Thank you for your lovely description of Dorcas as well!

* Women are called by God to serve the body of believers as He equips and gifts us. Women should not ask, 'What are my spiritual gifts?" Rather, the question should be, "Where is there a need and what can I do to fill it?"

I am going to argue a little with you here -although I do think that there is definite merit in this statement. I do think that it can be useful for us to take inventory of our spiritual gifts before we simply jump in to try to fill a need. For example, I have a friend who is not a good cook. She' s trying to learn and improve, but as of now, she is just not gifted in this area. In our church, we often have a need for people to make "mercy meals" (for the ill, new moms etc). Just because that need is there does not mean that my friend should fill it. It would actually be kind of horrible if she cooked for someone who is ill - she readily admits this! Instead, she helps our church in other ways - she sometimes organizes people to deliver meals, she helps with the church cleaning every week, and she occasionally prepares bulletins. These are all things that she can do well.

I most definitely agree that we should look for needs that we can fill! However, I also think its important to know whether or not we are qualified to fill that need. I can cook meals for the ill, but I cannot play the piano on Sunday mornings, for instance. (My playing the piano during worship would another rather horrifying experiment). We need to be careful that we aren't barging in and doing something we shouldn't just because "I'm good at this" or "I have a gift." But neither should we assume that we should fill a need just because its there.

Here is where I'd like more scriptural clarity:

* I've gotten the comment, "Should a woman be reading so much doctrine? Enough of your Calvin-worship and your puritan-worship!' when I talk about what I'm reading, or quote something I've recently been edified with.

* I've been told to stick with what makes me a better wife and mother -devoting myself solely to those things. By this they mean that to be through reading books on decorating, cookbooks, devotionals, Bible studies - like Beth Moore (yes, I used to do a bunch of them before I became reformed).

I wholeheartedly agree but I believe that we need to take the whole counsel of God, that the Word was not meant only for men but also women, that the passages pertaining to women were specifically for our edification and exhortation but doesn't exclude other portions of Scripture that applies to ALL believers, men or women. What makes me a better wife and mother than to know more and more the God who alone can make me the wife and mother He created me to be?

* What do you think of these situations? I'm not as clear in these areas:

- Women reading Scripture out loud during worship
- Women leading a large group of women through expository teaching through a book of the Bible - but with solid biblical foundation
- Women meeting to discuss a Puritan classic or Grudem's systematic theology instead of a book specifically aimed at women.
- Women joining in theological discussions where both men and women are present in an informal setting.
- Women standing in front during worship, not leading, but standing with 3 or so others to aid in the singing especially if there's a new song.

There's nothing in those scenarios, just thinking of several situations where I'm not one convinced one way or the other. Any thoughts?

-----Added 7/28/2009 at 09:17:47 EST-----

Originally Posted by Montanablue

* Women are called by God to serve the body of believers as He equips and gifts us. Women should not ask, 'What are my spiritual gifts?" Rather, the question should be, "Where is there a need and what can I do to fill it?"

I am going to argue a little with you here -although I do think that there is definite merit in this statement. I do think that it can be useful for us to take inventory of our spiritual gifts before we simply jump in to try to fill a need. For example, I have a friend who is not a good cook. She' s trying to learn and improve, but as of now, she is just not gifted in this area. In our church, we often have a need for people to make "mercy meals" (for the ill, new moms etc). Just because that need is there does not mean that my friend should fill it. It would actually be kind of horrible if she cooked for someone who is ill - she readily admits this! Instead, she helps our church in other ways - she sometimes organizes people to deliver meals, she helps with the church cleaning every week, and she occasionally prepares bulletins. These are all things that she can do well.

I most definitely agree that we should look for needs that we can fill! However, I also think its important to know whether or not we are qualified to fill that need. I can cook meals for the ill, but I cannot play the piano on Sunday mornings, for instance. (My playing the piano during worship would another rather horrifying experiment). We need to be careful that we aren't barging in and doing something we shouldn't just because "I'm good at this" or "I have a gift." But neither should we assume that we should fill a need just because its there.

Awesome point! You are so correct! LOL! Thanks for adding that!

Originally Posted by jules5solas

* I've gotten the comment, "Should a woman be reading so much doctrine? Enough of your Calvin-worship and your puritan-worship!' when I talk about what I'm reading, or quote something I've recently been edified with.

Whoever said that is a dope.

You are so sweet! I think that perhaps my question was really not very clear so I came across as putting down those ministries. I am more grieved about the restrictions they had on what women should and shouldn't be reading, discussing, studying, learning, teaching. They really didn't think that we needed to get into it, that we needed to leave it to the men. Of course, not really saying it in those terms but very obviously not encouraging it.

I appreciated everyone's comments because I mostly agree. However, I think they're coming from a different angle - most people who ask questions like this are wanting someone to give a more egalitarian answer. I'm not looking for that in the least bit! :-)

* I've gotten the comment, "Should a woman be reading so much doctrine? Enough of your Calvin-worship and your puritan-worship!' when I talk about what I'm reading, or quote something I've recently been edified with.

You'd be praised for that kind of talking if there were any real male leaders in your congregation.

* I've been told to stick with what makes me a better wife and mother -devoting myself solely to those things. By this they mean that to be through reading books on decorating, cookbooks, devotionals, Bible studies - like Beth Moore (yes, I used to do a bunch of them before I became reformed).

If what you say is true, I'm sorry for you, since there is no male leadership in your congregation.

I wholeheartedly agree but I believe that we need to take the whole counsel of God, that the Word was not meant only for men but also women, that the passages pertaining to women were specifically for our edification and exhortation but doesn't exclude other portions of Scripture that applies to ALL believers, men or women. What makes me a better wife and mother than to know more and more the God who alone can make me the wife and mother He created me to be?

Never did like Hegel. In Trinitarian thought we don't need weird dialectics.

* What do you think of these situations? I'm not as clear in these areas:

- Women reading Scripture out loud during worship

If you stay here long enough, you'll learn to read whatever Pastor Buchanan writes at least twice. I'd do it on this thread, if I were you.

- Women joining in theological discussions where both men and women are present in an informal setting.

It could be formal!!! Why not? Our OPC pastor is as conservative as they come, and he encourages participation during Bible studies.

- Women standing in front during worship, not leading, but standing with 3 or so others to aid in the singing especially if there's a new song.

Debatable, but there are female singers mentioned in the OT.

Julie I was thinking earlier that your former church seemed to have taken something that applies to gifting for a public role and applied it across the board, so that it winds up seeming as if a woman needs a mediator to have a relationship with Christ -- in that she is not allowed women to discuss truth without male headship, and is discouraged from taking much interest in it.

Yes you are right that we need to learn of Christ just as any other member of the body, and that it is our relationship with Him that is our strength. I think there are balances in how that works out throughout our life, and that balances are different for different dispositions -- but no woman is so constituted that she can have joy in practical labor for Christ without the blessing of learning and enjoying the Truth that He is.

I am not knowledgeable enough to speak to all the questions you raised and others here are more qualified; but I did want to say (since I'm still out of my thanks button :-) thanks for these useful posts.

Originally Posted by a mere housewife

He just shared with me that one of their Deacons will be leaving their PCA Church because he's come to the conviction that women should be allowed to do anything a man can do.

I actually think that demeans the dignity of women -- it defines our usefulness and value in terms of 'what a man can do'.

Caroline, I think the Biblical teaching would be not that we shouldn't learn from each other and as you say that men can't learn from women; but as Rich points out that there are different roles and gifts for those roles in the church; and a woman's role in the church isn't that of publicly (formally, as regards 'having the floor' or being elected to leadership etc) teaching or ruling men?

That's an interesting point ... defining usefulness in terms of someone else. I suppose that applies to a lot of things, now that I think of it. For example, I get annoyed when people try to say brightly that they think that with a little sorting out of details, I can do anything that a non-disabled person can do, because (1) no, I can't and (2) it tends to suggest that my life is not worthwhile if I can't. Not that this has much to do with the topic at hand except that I'm considering the overall meaning of what you said.

And yes, I can see how it would be different teaching as in learning from someone vs. having someone in leadership. I suppose I can learn something from my daughter once in a while, but that doesn't put her in charge of the house. To be clear, I'm not arguing in favor of female pastors, etc. In fact, although I don't know that I could really defend this biblically at this point, churches with female pastors give me the heebie-jeebies, and I would never attend one.

I wonder (and this is not necessarily responding to Heidi's post as much as a few other posts here regarding women and their natural inclinations) if any of the women here sometimes feel rather like their natural inclinations are not quite the expected norm, though?

For example, I do not cook. I hate cooking, and I'm terrible at it, and the last time I tried, I accidentally set the cookbook on fire (really). My husband is a very good cook and quite enjoys it, so he has always been the family chef, and good thing or we would have all died of starvation by now. And, while I have nothing against people who are 'huggers', per se, I have never been one, and I'm a little uncomfortable with it. I'm quite fond of my own children, but I do not particularly enjoy caring for the children of others, although I do from time to time when necessity calls for it.

When I am put in a role that is generally viewed as 'women's work', I find that I am generally without anything to do, or at least nothing that I can do well, so it is discouraging. In fact, this is one of the biggest difficulties that I have in 'fitting in' with other Christians. At least with non-Christians, I generally feel like I have something to talk about. But at church, things generally split up into groups of men and groups of women, and the women all get together and talk about homeschooling and gardening and cooking, and I just sit there smiling like an idiot because I don't even know what they are talking about most of the time. And sometimes I try to help in the kitchen or something, but it's always a disaster. One time, a woman asked me to section a grapefruit, and I asked her what that meant, and she said that you are supposed to take a knife and cut around the grapefruit pieces to make them easier to pick up with a spoon. I thought she was joking and I laughed and said, "Haha! Can you imagine if people really did that?"

Oops. Turns out people really DO that. Who would have guessed? I dunno .... I always peel my grapefruit ... I thought we were being fancy by cutting it in half. I'd never even heard of cutting around the pieces.

I run the website for my church (and a couple of other churches that saw ours and liked it), but that's not a lot of conversation. My husband says I should probably look for friends at places other than church, like at work, where there aren't quite the same traditional type roles. But he feels kinda left out at church too. They have hospitality meetings and invite all the women, but nobody invites him, even though he goes to quite a lot of work hosting fellowship dinners, and when I asked him, he totally knew about sectioning grapefruits. My husband is a big bearded construction worker that looks like he could crush me with one hand (and he probably could, although we won't test that theory), so I suppose it didn't occur to anyone that he might want to help with the cooking and such.

I'm not sure exactly where I'm going with this, actually. Venting a little frustration, maybe. It's not that I'm looking for a reason to not be involved at the church. In fact, I suppose fitting in at church is rather more important to me than it should be, and I keep thinking if I could change myself somehow ...

I guess my question would be whether God requires women to be interested in cooking and cleaning, and if so, where does that leave me? The idea of trying to be that kind of person ... well, I LIKE those people (don't get me wrong), but, for me to try ... it's like a tone-deaf person trying to sing.

Jules, I think is this discussion it would be important to understand what women are specifically forbidden to do in Scripture in the context of the Church. The big things would be prohibition form having authority over a man and leading worship. Likewise a woman cannot hold the office of Elder or Deacon.
This would disqualify a woman from the public reading of Scripture during the worship service.

Caroline I love it that you set your cookbook on fire :-) I just today had to put down yet another cookbook I was trying to read through in bottomless despair because I will never understand food.

I certainly don't think we have to be Stepford Wives -- God gave us to individual men, and it sounds like you and your husband work very well together. The role you are supposed to fill is not necessarily 'cook' but 'helpmeet'. It's a great blessing that it is our own husbands we're supposed to be suitable to, and not anybody else's -- they love us more than anybody else for exactly the person we are.

And yes having an illness, being disabled etc., can make it very difficult to relate to the normal sphere of others. I know that real love and understanding for one another exists in the church beyond such dissimilarities, and it is part of mutual growth in grace to learn to enter into that fellowship more completely. I wish my head were less foggy -- I do understand what you are saying.

Thanks, Heidi. It's late and my head is more than a little foggy too. lol. But 'helpmeet', not necessarily 'cook' .... that make sense. Certainly, I don't think my husband would consider it helpful for me to cook. Especially not after the cookbook incident. (I left the cookbook on a burner that I believed to be off and then turned on the wrong burner. I know, I know ... several mistakes there. It's the sort of thing I do when I try to cook, though.)

Well, I'll head to bed and maybe this will all be more clear when I read over it again tomorrow.

Originally Posted by Grillsy

Jules, I think is this discussion it would be important to understand what women are specifically forbidden to do in Scripture in the context of the Church. The big things would be prohibition form having authority over a man and leading worship. Likewise a woman cannot hold the office of Elder or Deacon.
This would disqualify a woman from the public reading of Scripture during the worship service.

Grills,
Can you give me Scripture where the public reading of Scripture is only for men? Not disagreeing, just wanting more because your statement linked the office of Elder or Deacon with disqualifying a woman from public reading of Scripture. I see it as a therefore. So, can you back that up a bit more please? Thank you!

Well, I mean the reading of Scripture in the context of worship and teaching men. Certainly women would not read the Scripture aloud as part of public worship as this would be instructing and teaching over a man.

Originally Posted by Grillsy

Well, I mean the reading of Scripture in the context of worship and teaching men. Certainly women would not read the Scripture aloud as part of public worship as this would be instructing and teaching over a man.

I'm just giving you a hard time, Willie. You're one of the smartest guys I know.

But I do have to say, is it automatic that women reading aloud scripture as part of public worship be instructing and teaching? Is the reading of Scripture out loud instructing? Or just reading? Or both? getting nit-picky I know.