More specifically the question is...

'Is the rejection of our church by the surrounding community purely on account of our faithfulness to Christ or have we added offense to the gospel in some way?'

The question arrises from the thread dealing with the Free Church and the Scottish Highlands but was too long to post in the heading.

i went to a 'wee free' while on holiday!

A relevant scripture to underpin the discussion perhaps is

My concern in this discussion is not to

1) Say that Free Church and similar groups are all dead religious and hypocritical
2) Ignore the fact that faithfulness to Christ can breed hostility among the lost
3) Ignore the fact that other denominations have Christians who 'let the side down'

It is however to deal with the issue

If a large part of the surrounding community reject a local church and have bad feelings towards it on the basis of the actions and attitudes of the local church as a unit, is this not an indication that something is wrong with the local church?

__________________
"A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent." John Calvin

John from Scotland
Denomination: Attending Baptist church
Confessional Subscription:London Baptist Confession
Blog: [url]www.three-streams.co.uk[/url]

We should remove all offenses except that very necessary offense of the Cross.

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Hatred from the world is evidence that a church is 'Christlike'.

Is it the community of other churches that you are concerned about? Or the world?

__________________


http://www.villagecommunitychurch.org/


"Preparing a sermon is like cooking a meal. You need pots and pans and utensils, but you don't bring them out to the table where people are eating." Derek Thomas


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are they being hypocritical or are they merely following Biblical commands to separate themselves from one who refuses to repent of their sin?

If the lost do not understand the Matthew 18 commands, then we ignore them or take the time to explain it to them..

And no, it's not always something is wrong within the local church, it could merely be, the local community does not understand the ways of Christ...and how the church is to deal with discipline within it's own body...

__________________
Bobbi Clark
Covenant Member
Pinewood Pres. (PCA) Middleburg

When I kept Silent, My bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. Psalm 32:3

Yes.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
Facebook - The Calvinist Vent
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It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

The lost will always hate the church even if it was absolutely perfect, because they are lost, by definition, and love darkness rather than light.

That said, as has already been noted, those around us should only have cause to hate us for the gospel we proclaim, not because we are unfriendly, aloof, etc.

__________________
Jonathan Hunt

Elder holding forth the word of life at:
Cheltenham Evangelical Free Church (Confessionally Based)
Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, United Kingdom

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.
-- Thomas Elsworth

Could be either depending upon the particular church. I've seen both.

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Donald Jacobs
Roanoke VA.
Covenant Reformed Episcopal Church.

Cum vero infirmor tunc potens sum.

Josh beat me to it, but I would say the answer is Yes.
Now, if the world hates us because of our faithfulness to Christ and our whole-hearted commitment to him then that is indeed a sign of the world's sin and it's hatred towards Jesus Christ.
However, sometimes the church is despised not because of her faithfulness to Christ but because she has failed to be Christlike in her life and witness in this world. Unbelievers are everywhere watching and waiting for the church to slip and fall. The hypocrisy radar, when it comes to the church at any rate, is very sensitive in non believers. Once the damage has been done, it can take generations to repair the offense that has been caused.
I would love to hear of how we can avoid unnecessarily offending the communities that we serve and how we can be a blessing to them so that even the unbelievers will be led to praise our Father in Heaven because of us.

__________________
Donnie MacLeod
Crossroads Presbyterian Fellowship (PCA), Maplewood, MO
MDiv Student Covenant Theological Seminary

You filled my heart with greater joy
than others may have found
As they rejoiced at harvest time,
when grain and wine abound.Ps 4:7, Sing Psalms 2003

[quote=KMK;597967]Hatred from the world is evidence that a church is 'Christlike'.

QUOTE]


Hatred of the world can be an evidence that the church is christlike, however hatred by the world is not a guarantee that the church is Christlike. Hatred can also be caused by hypocracy and judgementalism and pride. It would be dangerous to assume that because a Christian or a church is being hated by the world that it is primarily due to the fact he is a Christian. It could simply be because he is arrogant proud and aloof. Thus his unchristlikeness is the cause of offense and reason for the worlds hatred.

The non-Christian hates the church because it hates the church's Saviour. The unsaved hates the christian because of his witness and stand for the truth. The non-Christian hates the church because the word the church proclaims sheds light on man's darkness, and men hate any sort of moral light let alone spiritual light.

That said Paul's instruction to Timothy (1 Tim 3.7) is that the elder must have a good reputation with those outside of the church. This does not say he must be loved or liked by ousiders but have a good reputation in business, conduct, speech, attitude etc. I have often found that non-Christians may hate Christians but they respect them for standing up for what they believe and being consistant in what they believe, what they say and what they do.

There is the world of a difference between a Christian who is hated yet respected and the Christian who is hated and not respected because of inconsistancies. Sadly I have heard so many non-Christians say that they are not Christians because of the way a Christian businessman treated them in the past.

This is a real shame and it angers me that this has been an all too common occurance. But just because there is one crooked doctor it does not mean all doctors are crooked. Likewise the church; just because one Christian or one elder or one pastor has been hypocritical, immoral or inconsistant it does not mean all are. Look to the master rather than the servants.

When we cause offence, we must be sure it is because it is the offence of the gospel rather then unsanctified, unloving behaviour causing offence.

Bunyan depicts it so graphically when he brings the pilgrims through Vanity Fair. Their clothing was different, their speech was different, their values were different, and what they desired, truth, could not be purchased in the fair. Our white robes of Christ's righteousness are so different to the filthy rags of the worldy. Our speech is not rude and blasphemous but gracious and seasoned with salt. Our values are not the selfish, immoral values of the world and as we all know truth is found nowhere but in Christ and his word.

__________________
Stuart
Elder, Lambeg Baptist, Northern Ireland, UK

In Him the fulness of the Godhead dwells in bodily form and in Him you are complete (Col 2.9-10)

The Christian is a person who makes it easy for others to believe in God. (RM M'Cheyne)

I've always heard this, but I now question it. What makes us think that that the portions of scripture that make clear that the Christians will be hated and suffer persecution are applicable for all time? I mean, the sociological conditions have changed over time. In the early centuries, Christians did suffer that type of persecution that is described in the Bible, but later on in history, not so.

Think about the medieval era, where it wasn't Christians that were suffering persecution, it was non-Christians who were suffering persecution at the hands of the 'Christian' societies.

Or there is Geneva under Calvin, early America as founded by the Puritans, and I'm sure many more examples from history could show us that Christians were not always hated and persecuted.



So why do we take those passages in scripture, that could easily have been talking just to early Christians under their own unique cultural conditions, and apply them to Christians at all times, even when history shows that Christians haven't been hated and persecuted all times and at all places?

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Andrew C.
IFB
LBCF 1689

But your question was, "If a large part of the surrounding community reject a local church and have bad feelings towards it on the basis of the actions and attitudes of the local church as a unit, is this not an indication that something is wrong with the local church?"

Your own answer proves that the 'feelings' of the world toward the church are not necessarily an indication that something is wrong. It could mean that something is very right.

It is conceivable that the world could have justifiable hatred for a church. A group of pugnacious men who riot and terrorize a community could 'call' themselves a church and the community would be justified in their hatred. But this would be the exception and not the rule.

They are only applicable in times and places where Jesus Christ is hated.

Be careful here. ALL Christians are hypocritical, immoral and inconsistent this side of glory.

Exactly! And what is worse is that Christians assume because they face 'hostility' it because of their love for Christ rather than their own wierdness, arrogance or stupidity. Thus A believer may be experiencing difficulty with unbelievers and assumes it his 'cross to carry' when in actual fact he is being a pain and is in need of some awakening, repentance and sanctification. Yet spiritual pride blinds him to his true condition. Like the pharisee of old, he sees himself as ok but his sinful neighbour as worldly. Rather than allowing the perfect word to expose his folly.

Could you elaborate on the examples of above?

No way to tell. It could be either.

We are to seek to have a good report from them without. But it may not happen since they hate us and our God and what we stand for.

So we can be innocent and yet claimed to be bad.

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; 16 having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed. 17 For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. NKJV

John 15:18 "If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you,'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me
NKJV

1 John 3:12 And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous. 13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. NKJV

James 4:4 Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. NKJV

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DonP

I absolutely love this sermon - I've linked to it several times, and it always makes me think. This preacher is from the same denomination as Beeke.

SermonAudio.com - The World's hatred for the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ

__________________
Kevin, husband of a truly angelic woman, and father to ten.
Zion United Reformed Church of Sheffield
Ontario, Canada

This is a pretty common experience among Christians. I guess we can get that 'besieged' mindset, thinking that every non-Christian is a pawn of Satan waiting to pounce on us if we let down our guard. I had that mind set in high school, and it stopped me from reaching out to people as I should.

I think that if the view that Bro. Johnathan Hunt expressed was true, then the Christian witness would be useless. If the non-Christian hates us, either because of the truths we profess or because of our righteousness, than our Christian witness shouldn't change how they view us. If they hate us because of our creed, then our good deeds shouldn't produce an effect, because their issue is not with our behavior but with our creed. If they hate us because of our righteousness, then we should see in them hatred for all righteousness, which, while it exists, is far from universal.

Since I think we can see the Christian witness having effect on people, both in our experience and in history, I think that the view that Bro. Hunt expressed is wrong. One such example from history, of the Christian witness producing an effect is related by Eusebius(talking about the conduct of the Christians during a plague)

If the unregenerate are just bound to hate us,then our actions should not have as much of an effect as we see them having. The non-Christians shouldn't have been impressed by the Christian witness during the plague, as described by Eusebius(and Tertullian and Rodney Stark).

-----Added 4/16/2009 at 07:06:19 EST-----

[quote=KMK;598382]I don't have a very detailed view of some of this, but from what I've heard, in late medieval Europe, everyone was a Christian(at least in name) and holy men, such as Monks or Hermits, were venerated, not despised. Because of conditions like this, that have probably existed outside of late medieval Europe as well(I would think Geneva, a 'Christian republic' and colonial America), it's hard to believe that the persecution passages in scripture are describing what Christians will experience all times, all places.

Matt 10:34-37

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; 36 and 'a man's enemies will be those of his own household.' 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. NKJV

Rom 1:32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. NKJV

Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. KJV

If we did this I doubt they would be ashamed and stop to day as some might have in the past. They will no doubt despise us if god does not grant them repentance.

Since it's on my mind, here is a segment from Bullinger's De testamento seu foedere dei unico & aeterno, which work, along with three other early works of his, I will be beginning to post brief comments on either tonight or tomorrow at my new blog.

-----Added 4/16/2009 at 07:36:23 EST-----

In my short experience, it seems there will be times that the church is held in esteem by those without, and times when the church is hated by those without. Neither of these necessarily means we are doing rightly or wrongly. I don't think that we ought to be too concerned at all if those without should speak ill of us, if they should think us hypocrites or evildoers: when we hear such things, yes, we surely ought to examine ourselves and desire as always that we continue to be sanctified; but the natural man does not nor cannot know the things of the Spirit, and we should not be troubled: we have been told to expect this, for Christ was also accused of all manner of evil.

__________________
Paul Korte
OPC
Flint, MI

They who perceive in themselves discoveries of the divine goodness, so full and absolutely perfect, and who make them the subject of earnest meditation, will never embrace new doctrines, by which the very grace they feel so powerfully in themselves is thrown into the shade. --John Calvin

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The Scriptures provide a balance here. In the requirement for elders to have a good reputation among unbelievers, in the observation that when a man's ways please the Lord, even his enemies are made to be at peace with him, we can see that when a man is godly, the natural tendency is for him to live with the respect of his neighbor, and have peace.

At the same time, darkness resents light; and so Paul could lay down as a requirement for elder that he have a good testimony before unbelievers, while knowing at the same time that false accusations were circulated about him.

__________________
Ruben
Moderator
F.P.C.I.
Indiana

Vanities and disguises have covered us, and thereby we are naked; licenciousness hath inflam'd us, and thereby we are frozen; voluptuousness hath fed us, and thereby we are sterved, the fancies and traditions of men have taught and instructed us, and thereby we are ignorant.
John Donne

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Calvinistas Conversando
Teología en Mexico
The Howling Wilderness

"All who wish to live godly lives

Persecution does not mean being hauled off to be burnt at the stake

It can be harsh word from others, mocking etc.

And the qualifier is, if you live Godly, if you differ not much from the current culture and trends you may not.

Although we are not perfect in this life, we should make every effort that people badmouth us for our holiness and not our tendency to act religious. We may never know the cause of things that provoke hostility towards us, but let's work at not giving the world cause to do so. If we lead peaceful, productive lives it tends to cut the legs out from under their accusations.

__________________
Rich Koster
1689'er
Browns Mills NJ USA
Often Goofy Reformed Eccentric
Romans 7:14-25

The world hates the church often for very good reasons.

Lord save me from your people.

We cannot just excuse ourselves and blame it on the world when we meet folks who do not like us...we need to look inward and see if we are making Jesus look bad.

I recommend this book, the audiobook is well-read:

Be careful of making assertions about things of which you do not have a detailed view. The fact that some group who called themselves a church did some nasty things does not prove the point. Unless the OP concerns any who call themselves a church. Monks might have often been venerated because of their ascetic lifestyle which is patently NOT Christlike.

The fact that persecution happens to different degrees does not imply that the words of Christ do not bear upon all Christians in all ages.

It's hard for me to look at medieval Christendom and see how a medieval Christian could go to the passages describing the persecution of the early Christians and think that they are somehow sharing in those sufferings. And about me making assertions based upon incomplete information, that would be an issue if i said that there was NO persecution of Christians during the medieval era, and I hope that's not what I implied in my post. What I really mean is that explicit, lets-get-em-because-hes-a-Christian type persecution, doesn't seem to have been present in all societies at all time frames.

THat's a gold nuggest of wisdom there.