Thread: Church planting in Denmark

Here in Denmark we have a situation.
As some of you know a church plant work has begun after the visit of Paul Washer.
The problem is that we are not very many people and about half of us are peado/covenant baptisers and since the church will be a reformed baptist that means different problems in the church plant:
1: peado can not become elders, so we have only two possible elders.
2: will infant baptised children be able to partake in communion?
3: what happens when I forexample have another child and want it baptised.
4: what will this do to the fellowship peados have already been discribed as 90% members or at best assosiate members.
And as a side note does this mean I can not preach and teach?

As a consequence of my leaving the state church I have lost all my elder and preaching/teaching work in the fellowship we attended and now we are more alone than ever.
__________________

If they are going to be that strict with you and your peers who believe in covenant baptism for infants then it would be my guess that someday you all will need another church.

If they don't respect your conscience, then how could you stay? It sounds like you are second-class citizens there.

I'll be praying for you and your family.

How is this working exactly? Are they sending you guys a missionary pastor who will be leading the church that is established there, or is one of your men from Denmark going to be the pastor? If it will be one of your men, is there no way you for can contact the Presbyterian church and ask them to oversee you by working with the man from Denmark who will be the pastor? I know the OPC sends out missionaries so they are open to helping those in need....there just might be a newly graduated pastor who needs a pulpit and would help establish your church until one of your own could.

Well this is still the "best" chance (read "only") we have for a church fellowship.
The next step is that we do like I only hear about in China and make a house church, with some friends and family, if or when they leave the state church.

I think they do respect our consience but they want to have a credo-baptismal creed and stick to it, which I can understand fully, them being baptist and all.
But I think you are right all the consequeses of such a creed:
1: no infant baptism
2: no communion for children/or blessing during communion for children
3: unquallified as a Peado-baptist to become a full member and there by also barred from eldership (and maybe preaching and teaching, they are still looking into that)

will proberbly make it impossible for me to join such a church,


But what think You, my Bretheren ?????

I need counsel!

Originally Posted by Re4mdant

Well this is still the "best" chance (read "only") we have for a church fellowship.
The next step is that we do like I only hear about in China and make a house church, with some friends and family, if or when they leave the state church.

I think they do respect our consience but they want to have a credo-baptismal creed and stick to it, which I can understand fully, them being baptist and all.
But I think you are right all the consequeses of such a creed:
1: no infant baptism
2: no communion for children/or blessing during communion for children
3: unquallified as a Peado-baptist to become a full member and there by also barred from eldership (and maybe preaching and teaching, they are still looking into that)

will proberbly make it impossible for me to join such a church,


But what think You, my Bretheren ?????

I need counsel!

Martin,
We had a Presbyterian (PCRNA) family worship with us for about two years. They tried several Presbyterian churches in our city and none of them were as conservative (they were PCUSA) as our Reformed Baptist Church. This family, although never members, were heartily welcomed among us. They were frequently in the homes of our families.

They graciously stood silently when we sang a non-Psalter hymn from the Trinity hymnal. We permitted them to partake of the Lord's Supper. They recommended our church to many baptist and paedobaptist acquaintances in our city.

They now live in Los Angeles and stay in contact with several of our members.

All this to say that first and foremost you and your family need to worship the Lord with the gathered saints where you are able to do so in good conscience.

If you have any questions please PM me.

The Lord bless you and keep you.

Why not plant a Reformed church?

I pray your church is established.
I had one of my three sons who studied there in Copenhagen. Many Americans as well as folks from around the world go there to study engineering and they live in those shipping crate apartments and get exposed to the ideas of the world. In time they begin to have "deep" discussions about life with other learned minds. My son abandoned his faith and became at best an agnostic during his time there. I am still praying that he wakes up from the deep sleep intellectualism put him in.
You can be a light that might be used to scare off the cockroaches.

Originally Posted by rbcbob

Originally Posted by Re4mdant

Well this is still the "best" chance (read "only") we have for a church fellowship.
The next step is that we do like I only hear about in China and make a house church, with some friends and family, if or when they leave the state church.

I think they do respect our consience but they want to have a credo-baptismal creed and stick to it, which I can understand fully, them being baptist and all.
But I think you are right all the consequeses of such a creed:
1: no infant baptism
2: no communion for children/or blessing during communion for children
3: unquallified as a Peado-baptist to become a full member and there by also barred from eldership (and maybe preaching and teaching, they are still looking into that)

will proberbly make it impossible for me to join such a church,


But what think You, my Bretheren ?????

I need counsel!

Martin,
We had a Presbyterian (PCRNA) family worship with us for about two years. They tried several Presbyterian churches in our city and none of them were as conservative (they were PCUSA) as our Reformed Baptist Church. This family, although never members, were heartily welcomed among us. They were frequently in the homes of our families.

They graciously stood silently when we sang a non-Psalter hymn from the Trinity hymnal. We permitted them to partake of the Lord's Supper. They recommended our church to many baptist and paedobaptist acquaintances in our city.

They now live in Los Angeles and stay in contact with several of our members.

All this to say that first and foremost you and your family need to worship the Lord with the gathered saints where you are able to do so in good conscience.

If you have any questions please PM me.

The Lord bless you and keep you.

And we at the Los Angeles RPCNA are grateful that they moved out here.

Originally Posted by SolaScriptura

Why not plant a Reformed church?

Is there such a thing as a reformed house church?, and who would be pastor?, and how would you run such a house church?

Originally Posted by Re4mdant

Originally Posted by SolaScriptura

Why not plant a Reformed church?

Is there such a thing as a reformed house church?, and who would be pastor?, and how would you run such a house church?

A Reformed Church can begin in a house of course.

The first thing that I would do is see if there are other families that are interested. If you get 2-3 other families that have an interest, start meeting on the Lord's Day in the evenings. Come together, sing psalms, read Scripture, pray, listen to a sermon, or conduct a Bible Study with the aid of a commentary or book that you all trust. You could also start a bank account and putting monies aside with the hopes that Christ's spirit moves to build a faithful Reformed church there.

Most importantly- be open and honest with all others who are attending as to the intentions. You could borrow a church order- say from the OPC, or the URC (or RPCNA ) and say this is our creed, these will be our standards as we grow.

As you are doing this- send out letters to various Global Missions Boards of Reformed denominations. Tell them what the Lord is doing in your midst, tell them how many have been attending worship, what your financial resources look like- and ask them for help. Come over and Help! You may spark some interest from a Missions Board who would be willing to fund a pastor. Of course, if the Lord raises one up in your midst- get him trained!

This is an extraordinary circumstance of course.

Pray. Pray. Pray. That is ordinary.

Martin you have my sympathy and prayers. God is sovereign and He WILL work this for good.

One thing I wanted to say, after 30 years of marriage, is that I've seen my husband be an asst pastor, pastor, elder twice, guest speaker, retreat speaker, and also "nothing". We had to leave our last church eventually where he was an elder, when a staff member decided that calvinism was death and stagnation and went on to push his off the wall agenda, and the elders would not get rid of the guy( split vote). Right now hub is a "nothing" but we are busy with the church library, and books have so much impact.

If you are in fellowship and have people over for meals and are in a small group, you have no idea how many open doors to "teach" you will get. I don't want to minimize pulpit preaching here, but ask God to use you in the little settings. People will open up and get talking and you can end up going into all sorts of doctrines. And books.....we have loaned out enough books and CDs to sink a battleship! You can have a dramatic imfluence on people's thinking and doctrine without ever preaching up front. You may get drawn into heavy personal marriage trouble counseling and so forth, and be able to share scripture that applies.

Of course I pray God opens up a place where you fit and can be a paedo without problems, and brings revival. But for right now, use this opportunity in every little way you can. You may be amazed at how much impact you can have, every bit as much as sermons.

Read Ezekiel 44. God let men stand before the congregation and minister before all the people, but did not let them into the holy of holies because of their idolatry. Make going into the holy of holies in prayer a higher priority than standing before the people right now. One of these days you'll be teaching, but right now realize how chosen you are to be able to pray (with clear insight!!), and that is a greater honor than ministry in front of the crowd.

Maybe someday I'll be able to move there and help out, it would definitely take awhile though

2: will infant baptised children be able to partake in communion?

Allowing padeocommunion would probably be a deal breaker for me. Proper administration of the sacraments is one of the marks of a true church.

Originally Posted by Edward

2: will infant baptised children be able to partake in communion?

Allowing padeocommunion would probably be a deal breaker for me. Proper administration of the sacraments is one of the marks of a true church.

That is comming dangerously close to saying that Christian churches that do practise peadocommunion or some blessing ritual for children during communion are not true churches, is it not?

Originally Posted by Re4mdant

Originally Posted by Edward

2: will infant baptised children be able to partake in communion?

Allowing padeocommunion would probably be a deal breaker for me. Proper administration of the sacraments is one of the marks of a true church.

That is comming dangerously close to saying that Christian churches that do practise peadocommunion or some blessing ritual for children during communion are not true churches, is it not?

He is saying that for baptist churches that allow paedocommunion is a deal breaker for him. He is not saying anything of peadocommunion believing churches. And seeing that he is in the PCA, he probably believes in peadocommunion

Yes I took him as saying that, I was not questioning that. I was just asking an inward question out loud.
When we abstain from fellowship because we are against peado or against credo it makes me feel sad espesially in a country like ours.
That we are all reformed and long to serve the Lord should make us want fellowship more instead of trying to agree in every nidy gridy.
The problem is that this does not seem nidy gridy, but not finding agreement or arrengement in this point will mean that we have real Christians that will end up fellowship-less because of this.

At what point is compromise wrong and at which point is it right and reasonable?

Originally Posted by Kings Bro

Originally Posted by Re4mdant

Originally Posted by Edward

Allowing padeocommunion would probably be a deal breaker for me. Proper administration of the sacraments is one of the marks of a true church.

That is comming dangerously close to saying that Christian churches that do practise peadocommunion or some blessing ritual for children during communion are not true churches, is it not?

He is saying that for baptist churches that allow paedocommunion is a deal breaker for him. He is not saying anything of peadocommunion believing churches. And seeing that he is in the PCA, he probably believes in peadocommunion

I think from the context Edward is saying he believes that paedocommunion represents improper administration of the sacraments, period, and as such makes a paedocommunion church deficient (marks of the church)

Also, not everyone or even close to everyone in the PCA believes in paedocommunion (I hope!). Isn't that perhaps a bit too harsh to make that assumption?

Originally Posted by Re4mdant

At what point is compromise wrong and at which point is it right and reasonable?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you are denied paedo-baptism and paedo-communion it is, for you, in the category of a denied blessing rather than a sin? If so, it would make no sense to deny yourself a lot more blessing (participation in an otherwise agreeable church) for the sake of being denied the one. If you don't have better good alternative, I think it is fine to compromise.

Originally Posted by dr_parsley

Originally Posted by Re4mdant

At what point is compromise wrong and at which point is it right and reasonable?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you are denied paedo-baptism and paedo-communion it is, for you, in the category of a denied blessing rather than a sin? If so, it would make no sense to deny yourself a lot more blessing (participation in an otherwise agreeable church) for the sake of being denied the one. If you don't have better good alternative, I think it is fine to compromise.

Well I think we are at the point now, is peado baptism and communion to be counted as an extra blessing or is it a covenant act and therefor to be regarded as more than just another blessing?

Have you guys tried to get in touch with a biblically standing Presbyterian church to see if you can start a home church and be under its blessing?

Since you have said that this is your "only" chance for a church fellowship right now and since the group you are talking with is of a divided opinion, you might consider what I understand to be the "Free Presbyterian Church" view. I am not in favor of that but this seems to be an extreme situation. I found this on a churches website in their constitution. Food for thought at least.

A. Exceptions
We have adopted the view of the Free Presbyterian Church on the subject of
Christian Baptism which is summarized as follows…
"Christ Reformed Church, under Christ the Great King and Head of the Church,
Realizing that bitter controversy raging around the mode and proper subjects of
the ordinance of Christian baptism has divided the Body of Christ when that Body
should have been united in Christian love and Holy Ghost power to stem the
onslaughts and hell-inspired assaults of modernism, hereby affirms that each
member of Christ Reformed Church shall have liberty to decide for himself which
course to adopt on these controverted issues, each member giving due honor in
love to the views held by differing brethren, but none espousing the error of
baptismal regeneration."

Tonight we had another "pre-church" meeting and it looks like follows

1: They want to adopt a creed like "the westminster shorter catecism or the 1689.

2: we will meet in the home of one of the men (the most likely elder) for sunday services at least as a beginning.

3: male eldership only

4: pre - peado people are accepted and will most likely be able to both preach and teach, but will not be suiteble for eldership for obvious reasons.

5: we will have some more pre-church meetings to get to know each other and see eachother regularly, while a committe makes a church order and practis.

Martin, do you have even one other family that shares your views?

If so, then why not follow the advice above & join together on a Sunday night?

Well because the people I know are either members of a state church or wanting for this church plant to be their church if at all possible so they are working on that.

Can you first gather as a "fellowship" or bible study and see what "emerges"?

We are planning on meeting my wife, me and another couple for a midweek bible study and inviting others and we dream of what might be.
But will it not be wired if we that have that study and now will meet in a reformed baptist church end up becomming a reformed presbytarian church sprung from such a biblestudy?

Martin, is it possible to place an ad in a local newspaper? Perhaps some others would be interested. Or is this not a good idea?

Well I believe that that might be a good idea, but would that not show some kind of disregard for the church plant in progress
+ if it where to succeed and it turned into a bible study and later into a church we are not equiped to handle that in my opinion.

Remember I am from a Lutheran branch, I am used to a very ordered sort of church order, this is all very confusing and disorderly to my mind