Brethren, I would like to hear your thoughts about the age at which you would expect a covenant child to go through catechism and make public profession of faith.

Now, I realize we cannot (and should not) force such a profession. However, we need to expect them to (profess) if and because they are baptized.

So the practical question is - when? Do you think it is wise to set an age limit (as a church), e.g. 10 or 12 years of age, by which you expect children to have gone through catechism and made profession of faith consequently?

__________________
Sebastian Heck
PCA & Selbständige Evangelisch-reformierte Kirche in Deutschland (Free Evangelical-Reformed Church of Germany)
Ph.D. student at Theological Universiteit Apeldoorn/Netherlands
Church Planting in Germany
Reformation2Germany

Why not when the Lord works in them and causes them to do so? Really, what are you going to do if they don't make the profession at 12? You could always ground them or something, but their heart is not going to change.

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Andrew Thornquist My Photo Album
Calvinistic Baptist
Ukiah, California
To follow Christ was the best decision God made for me!

Easy, when they pass the age of accountability of course.



I'm just kidding.

Granted we shouldn't be forcing out a profession of faith (POF), it's important to realize why they haven't by the time they should (which we are debating here). We are all monergistic, calvinistic believers here but I think at times more issues are at play behind a POF than simply "when the Lord works in them."

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Ewen
1689 LBCF
Assemblies of God Bible College
Singapore

in our family our oldest 2 have both made a clear, unprompted, credible profession by age 11.

Now both of them (as well as their younger siblings) have made many "confessions" of faith from the time they could speak. Only my 2 year old has not yet declared her love of Jesus & desire to go to heaven.

In the baptist tradition I (& my wife) grew up in these childish (yet very heartfelt) professions were considered a conversion. Since I came to understand the reformed faith I consider this to be the normal growth of a covenant child. So I look at the later more mature confession as the "Public profession of faith". Largely since this is when they can explain themselves to the elders.

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Kevin Rogers
Sovereign Community Church, PCA
Moncton NB

Our children being to learn the catechism at a very young age (around 2yr or earlier). We have a young man who is a covenant baby who is now around 17yrs of age who still hasn't made a confession... although by his life I believe he is a Christian. I think once they become adults my pastor would encourage them to become communicate members which is when they would state their profession of Christ. We don't make children do this at any certain age. I'm not sure that it's even encouraged to have younger children become communicate members.....we don't have any at any rate. I think if they were in their late teens and wanted to then they would be encouraged to do so.

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sarah
WI
OPC
My Pastor's Sermons: Mark Jenkins...he's awesome!!!

That sounds so familiar from some of my Pietist brethren... Seriously though, we all agree that the Lord is the one working in them to will and to do. However, being Presbyterian&Reformed we should have a church order/polity in place that causes us eventually to "worry" if they do not make such a profession at a certain age - and that "worrying" would eventually have to take the shape of church discipline (not grounding, which is, as far as I can remember not a measure of the latter!)

So, that was not really helpful, Andrew! Because I am still no further in discussing with you what that "certain age" may - in all wisdom - be.

-----Added 9/30/2009 at 10:58:38 EST-----

Kevin,
do you think that...

...is what we mean by intelligible profession of faith? Or is there more to it? Moreover, is there more to being a full, communicant member of a church than saying "I love Jesus and want to go to heaven"?

Before they move out on their own and/or get married

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Bert Mulder
Elder of the First Protestant Reformed Church of Edmonton
Edmonton Alberta Canada

After they have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit? Any other profession is a FALSE one. I can't even believe that this question needs another answer.

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Jon Adams
Member of Grace Bible Church
Pleasant Hill, CA

Which is when again?

I don't really have an answer to that question, but I'll share with our personal experience with our daughter. When my oldest daughter was around 5 or 6, she expressed a strong faith in the Lord that verbally continued every year until she reached age 10. At age 11, when I learned the pastor had taken all the children in my daughter's Sunday school class through the catechism, except her, I was really upset. I suspect my daughter did not express an interest when the opportunity came up, and for some reason, they never communicated to us they were offering the class.

Looking back, I'm glad my daughter did not go through the class. Things got from bad to worse with our daughter and by the time she was 12, she had openly declared herself an atheist. As many of you know, it brought me to my knees. She ran hard the opposite direction. Well this summer, just after she turned 14, my daughter made a profession of faith. We all saw the dramatic change in her. It was so dramatic, she was still trying to figure out what happened weeks afterwards. A couple of weeks ago, she asked if we would allow her to be baptized so she could make an open profession of her faith. While we are not baptist, we realized the significance of this in her life and allowed her to do it. There is no question in my mind now what God has done.

In short, faith has to be individual. I am all for catechism classes, and we want our other daughter to go through the catechism classes when they are offered at our church. She will probably jump in and do it. There is already an apparent working of the Lord in her which grows daily before our eyes.

__________________
J Baldwin
Keowee Presbyterian Church, PCA
Pickens, SC
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” Luke 10:27

Check Out My Blog: http://reflectjoy.blogspot.com/

How soon after? I don't think this is as simple as you are making it out to be. What if the child isn't sure when they were regenerated and first responded in faith? Is a 4 year old supposed to make a public profession?

I cannot recall a time when I was NOT a Christian, but I didn't make a public profession until age 12. My parents didn't doubt my faith in those early years, but they didn't expect me to make a public profession either.

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Daniel
PCA
Memphis, TN

I think the more significant question works the other way around: at what age do we view a covenant child as a covenant breaker for not having embraced the faith that has faithfully been taught to him/her since birth?

BTW, I think it's fairly risky for churches to have communicants classes at a specific age -- peer pressure and adult expectations become much larger players than the regenerate heart.

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JWithnell
Member Bethel OPC
Virginia
http://learningyesican.blogspot.com/

[quote=Tripel;695774]Tripel, that's exactly what I am getting at! What you're describing is, I think, the way it SHOULD be in the church!

It is far too simplistic, IMHO, to say "after regeneration!" First, we do not "see" regeneration (and "looking" for it always leads into pietistic introversion!). Second, do we really make a dramatic conversion experience the condition upon which someone may become a communicant member?

-----Added 10/1/2009 at 10:41:15 EST-----

Yes, exactly! That's what I meant by eventually "worrying" about and and possibly having to discipline a "covenant teenager" for not owning the covenant.

Of course, we cannot "schedule" profession of faith (POF), but we can schedule a catechism class at a certain age at the end of which we expect young boys and girls (teenagers) to either own the promises made to them or not to (and bear the consequences). I am not talking about an automatism.

Someone let me know if this should be another thread or not. I have 2 children in my church. Both of them claim to believe the Gospel (you guys were talking about catechism --> one of them has memorized the WSC). The one who has memorized the catechism is 14/15 but is still not a communing member. I have talked to his parents, they both want him to be a communing member, and I've asked him, if he wants to be and he says yes. But he won't become a member and the parents say they leave it up to him. I'm still confused about this and don't know what to do.

The other one is a girl, and is the little sister (10 years old) of the boy above. I don't believe, in this situation, that she feels comfortable becoming a communing member when her older brother hasn't yet either. Thoughts?

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Rev. Andrew J. Barnes
Husband of Dena
Father of Oliver
Master of Bruce
Pastor of Tchula Presbyterian Church

What can I say, I like blogs!

One's siblings confession of faith (or lack thereof) should never be a consideration when doing confession of one's faith...

The HC teaches, biblically, that true faith is not only a certain knowledge, but also a assured confidence.

Thus, before one does a credible confession of one's faith, one needs to know what one is confessing. And in order to do that, a thorough catechism is requisite. Furthermore, in order to make a credible profession, one needs to be at the 'age of discretion'. Now while this varies, some (very few) people being at the age of discretion at 12, I would tend to think that the age of discretion for most people falls around their 16th through 21th year in the society we live in... Not many of our young people come to a sufficient spiritual maturity until that age.

In our congregation, the consistory has determined the following (yes, a convention of man, but trying to be faithful in all things),

1. Sabbath School for ages 5-12.
2. Jr. Catechism for ages 13-15.
3. Sr. Catechism for ages 16-18.
4. Confession of Faith for ages 18+.

In the Confession class, I have had baptized members wait to make confession for two reasons:
a) The do not believe they are converted
b) they do not have any assurance of salvation in Christ, and do not know if they are born again (though they may be).

So we wait until they are ready to make such a confession. In our church, the average seems to be about 20 years old.

__________________
Pastor Jerrold H. Lewis. (Dipl. IT; Assc. A; B.Th; M.Th Candidate, PRTS)
Lacombe Free Reformed Church
"A hot iron, though blunt, will pierce sooner than a cold one, though sharper."

JOHN FLAVEL

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Our Church site - Click HERE

Um, they don't have assurance of their salvation? There are many Christians who don't have assurance. Have you read the Puritans? Or the WCF on assurance.

This is a great book on the subject, and it is great Historical Theology but

not less Pastoral too.


The Quest for Full Assurance: The Legacy of Calvin and His Successors - Reformation Heritage Books

__________________
César Proença

there is no will nor running by which we can prepare the way for our salvation, it is wholly of the Divine Mercy Jean Calvin Institutes II . V. 17

Reformed Churches in The Netherlands (liberated) http://www.gkv.nl/main.asp?intTreeviewID=954

Igreja Reformada em Massamá Portugal http://www.igrejareformada.pt

Yes, they don't have assurance of their salvation, and by virtue of that fact, do not feel that they can make a confession of faith. They could make a confession of truth, but not say that they know that Christ is theirs (Confession of their faith).

Yes, I have, and do read the Puritans (on a daily basis), and I also have sworn to uphold the WCF in my ordination. The point for 'some" of our people is that they equate assurance with regeneration, something I am trying to help them with by the Lord's strength.

I think it is important for someone to determine if this is an issue of shyness or doubt in his own heart that he really knows the Lord.

I find it curious that our Reformed-petistic brethren are so often allergic to a "specific age", when Calvin himself, for one, knew and desired "a catechizing, in which children or those near adolescence would give an account of their faith before the church. But the best method of catechizing would be to have a manual drafted for this exercise, containing and summarizing in simple manner most of the articles of our religion, on which the whole believers’ church ought to agree without controversy. A child of ten would present himself to the church to declare his confession of faith, would be examined in each article, and answer to each; if he were ignorant of anything or insufficiently understood it, he would be taught. Thus, while the church looks on as a witness, he would profess the one true and sincere faith, in which the believing folk with one mind worship the one God" (Inst. IV,19,13).

If she was baptized as an infant, the re-baptism was not confessional.
WCF 28:7

If she wasn't, it was required.

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Edward
Deacon
PCA
Texas

Thank your for bringing this up. Several of my friends made false professions because they were threatened with church discipline and/or ostracizing if they did not. Their parents and churches basically encouraged them to sin (lying) by threatening them if they were honest about not being convinced of the gospel.

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Kathleen M
nondenominational
Montana

Now we're at the heart of the issue. I see it as a challenge to walk between two dangers: first, the danger to pressure our children - as parents and/or as a church - into making a profession of faith that is not "owned"; second, the danger to be more lenient than God himself is. After all, he is the one who expects covenant children to own the faith and the promise of the Gospel.

We can sin on both ends (as parents and as a church), by "encouraging them to sin", as you say Kathleen, by making POF that is just going through the motions, AND by "encouraging them to sin" but remaining outside of the covenant internally and inside only externally.

That's why I do think my original question is valid: when do we expect a public profession? Is there nothing we can say here? No wisdom that might make one practice wiser than another?

All parents look for this.

Many have answered this question in this post.Maybe you do not see the answer because you are trying to fit the proverbial square peg into a round hole.
If the Holy Spirit is not the teacher he will never be taught. Just because Calvin wrote it does not make it so. One problem with reading the writings of some of our trusted guides is that we do not always get the context correct with how they meant the statement.
You can see even here on the PB many times people talk past each other, or put a twist on someones words that was never intended on the part of the poster.

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Anthony D'Arienzo
Sunday School Teacher
Hope Reformed Baptist Church:
Medford, N.Y.

[quote=Iconoclast;696344]Well, maybe I don't see it! I don't see a true interaction about specific ages here. What I see is a lot pf pietistic answers along the lines of...
[quote=Iconoclast;696344] True enough! But also a truism! Saying we cannot expect the Holy Spirit work at a specific age in children after they have learned their catechism by heart (pun intended!) is lot like saying, we cannot expect the Holy Spirit to work at exactly 10:30 a.m. on a Sunday morning (or whenever the preacher mounts the pulpit). In both cases, we are providing some perfectly legitimate, albeit human, structure to a process in which we assume - and pray for! - the Holy Spirit to work according to promise.

Given my original question, sadly, I don't see a lot of interaction with the true issue at hand so far.

Are there no Reformed people on here, i.e. from 3Forms of Unity-Churches, who practice paedobaptism - catechism - public profession of faith - participation in the Lord's Supper, like in the olden days???