I talked to a pastor tonight that prided himself in spending close to 30 hours studying for his sermons every week.

He told his church when he got the call that he would not be available for frequent visitation, but in order to be hired, the church would have to give him 30 hours per week of uninterrupted study time and that he would not be frequently visiting his congregation. "If they are on their death bed, I will visit them...but otherwise, don't bother me..."


This struck me as weird and a displacement of priority.

Even though the public, corporate preaching of the Word is a priority for the pastor, a strong minority of his time ought to be in visiting his people.

It seems that many pastors are not very pastoral and are almost entirely preachers but not pastors.




Thoughts?

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

I don't think it is wise to give an across the board prescription as to "how much time" should be spent - or what percentage of time should be spent - on the various activities involved in pastoral ministry. Obviously, "enough" time needs to be given to study and sermon preparation, but also "enough" time needs to be spent with the flock.

I think one's ability to do research efficiently and expeditiously as well as craft the message needs to factor into how much time is needed. I don't "need" 30 hours of work to prepare for a 25 minute message.

What should also factor into the equation is the congregation's needs... is this an older congregation with many infirm folks? Or is it a young suburban flock full of vigorous people in their prime?

__________________
Ben
Chaplain, US Army
Ft. Riley, KS
TE Ohio Valley Presbytery, PCA

It also depends on the make up of the church like what Ben said. I do think its not wrong for that pastor to do that provided there's another pastor who is fulfilling that role. If he is being hired as a teaching/preaching pastor to free another up to be more focused on visitations.

But again, if a member is facing certain crisis and no pastor/elders will attend to that, its just... not right. If he's the sole pastor then he'll just have to balance his time then. Can't be too heavenly minded and be of no earthly use.

Back at my church we have 2 pastors that alternate on the preaching so while 1 has the whole week of 30 hours with no visitation obligations to prepare for sunday sermon, there's another who's available to attend to the congregation during the week.

How does that pastor keep tabs on what's going on in his congregation during the week? Does he have elders?

__________________
Ewen
1689 LBCF
Assemblies of God Bible College
Singapore

The Session shouldn't have hired him.

__________________
Rev. R. Kevin Carroll
Pastor Elect
Covenant Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Wheat Ridge, CO
Blog: Reformed and Loving It

I would find it odd that my pastor would feel the need to dedicate some of his time at my house unless I were sick or in special need of his counsel. He visits homes when the whole church gets together or he will invite new people to his home on Sundays to eat. He probably spends about the same amount of time studying. He obviously doesn't have the bad attitude this other guy has.

__________________
sarah
WI
OPC
My Pastor's Sermons: Mark Jenkins...he's awesome!!!

Depends very much on the congregation. A pastor should be the servant of his flock, willing to subordinate his own desires and preferences to the whatever is in their interests. This will vary from place to place, and between members of the congregation.

In over a decade at my current church, I've twice had issues which required serious amounts of time and energy from the pastoral staff. In one instance this meant fortnightly or monthly meetings with one of the pastors over a two year period, in the the other, several irregular meetings and emails over a similar timeframe. In each case these were things that really did have to be dealt with by the pastors, and there wasn't much opportunity to do so any quicker.

__________________
T W Hopper
Member, Presbyterian Reformed Church
Currently between churches since PRC closed here - attending Crossroads Christian Church.
Canberra, Australia.

John Newton once said, 'I measure ministers by a square measure. I have no idea of the size of a table , if you only tell me how long it is; but if you also say how wide, I can tell it's dimensions. So when you tell me what a man is in the pulpit, you must also tell me what he is out of it, or I shall not know his size.'

The pastors primary role is being in the word and prayer for the benefit of the flock, however neither of those will be as effective as they could be if he is not intimately aquainted with the needs of those sheep committed to his care. It could be argued from Acts 6 that the caring, visiting aspects of ministry is a role for the deacons of the church, rather then the eldership. However again a think a distant pastor is more likely to be a poor and ineffective pastor.

Visiting though is something that perhaps also needs to be considered, for visitation is not just about going to those in need, but also seeing everyone, so that when/ if there is a need you are in a position to help. It's about picking up the phone just to ask how something went, or if they ill because they weren't at church on sunday. Its about talking to people as you collect them in the minibus. It is about being with the people.

The pastorate is not 9-5 it is all day every day. As has been said proper time needs to be spent on preperation, and proper time needs to be spent with the flock as well, some weeks that will be an intensively difficult balancing act, and the pastor will feel like he needs to be cloned to get it all done, other weeks it will be somewhat easier.

__________________
Jonathan
Deacon (full time)
Independent Reformed Baptist (BCF 1689)
Tinshill Free Church, Leeds, UK.

The pastor's priority is prayer and the ministry of the word. Although I believe preaching should be his priority, and the the spiritual preparation of it, he should not neglect the visitation of members. In smaller churches, this is easier. In larger churches, he will have to utilize members of the session, to assist him in visitation. How much time cannot be made specific. It is different in each church. In this case, it seems that the man is a bit unbalanced and lacks compassion and love of the saints.

__________________
Rev. Andy Eppard
Associate Minister
First Cumberland Presbyterian Church
Springfield, MO

Is this a problem among sermon-centered calvinist preachers. In an effort to make preaching central are many men neglecting visitation and one-on-one care of the flock?

Among calvinisits I hear about pastors being great preachers, and their worth almost hinges on their oratory skills; but I rarely hear a pastor's worth assessed by how often he is at the bedsides of his people.

-----Added 5/20/2009 at 08:22:19 EST-----

Yes, I am trying to give him the benefit of the doubt and think that perhaps he was merely trying to enforce sane boundaries (perhaps he had been tasked to death before).

I didn't say that he should neglect his congregation, visitation is a part of pastoral ministry. I think the attitude of this pastor is wrong. I think he should not only visit the sick and dying, but also those who are not when he can. How large the congregation determines the frequency of this, as well as help from members of the session. However, preaching should be his priority. Many pastors should not be in pastoral ministry because they don't like preaching nor study. It is not in them because they are probably not called. There must be a balance. The Scriptural warrant for prayer and ministry of the Word being the pastor's priority is Acts 6:4. Although this is in reference to the Apostles, it commonly agreed that the Apostles were the main teachers of the early Church in Jerusalem. There are no more apostles today, and the Pastor now fulfills the role of the main teaching ministry of the Church. Most scholars would agree with me here. A good book that supports my position is Preaching and Preachers by Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones.

Each church is different. Each pastor is different. I find it significant that Jonathan Edwards made a similar observation and request -- he said he didn't have the social skills for visitation. But if members of his congregation requested counsel, he was quite generous with his time and assistance.

I think it is important that we don't place on our pastors expectations that have no clear scriptural basis and in doing so, perhaps shackle an otherwise gifted man. Deacons were created to pursue works of mercy to free the elders up for preaching and for prayer. Once you get outside what the scriptures give us, I think we should be careful about what we expect.

__________________
JWithnell
Member Bethel OPC
Virginia
http://learningyesican.blogspot.com/

On average I have found 15 hours to be plenty of time to prepare a biblically sound, practically applicable, engaging sermon, especially if you are preaching expositionally which doesn't require weekly extensive context explanation.

A pastor needs to be "out" with his people many hours each week. Sermon prep and "visitation" (meaning regular fellowship and interaction with the flock) are two sides of the same ministry coin.

__________________
Tony Felich
Pastor, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Overland Park, Kansas
www.redeemer-pca.org
blog: http://reepicheep-ajf.blogspot.com

A pastor should make himself available for counsel, but that doesn't mean he needs to visit. There are too many demands on his time to go house to house, unless his congregation is small (like ours). But it is of infinite value to him as a man of God and as a preacher to spend time with his people. He'll think better, know God better, love better and preach better as a result.

__________________
For the Glory of our King,
Joe Johnson
Slave of Christ, husband, father, Preacherboy at Cornerstone Community Church, Escanaba, MI. and TMS graduate. Personal website - SoundLife.org

I do not know, and I do not say, that a person cannot believe in Revelation and in evolution, too, for a man may believe that which is infinitely wise and also that which is only asinine. ~ CHS

This is probably THE biggest problem issue in my ministry. The people are used to pastors who spend at most 5 hours all week in the study, and spend five days a week visiting the people, sitting in tractors and combines with people, etc. I simply cannot do that. On the one hand, it is very important to love the people by getting to know them and their needs, and seeking to fulfill those needs. On the other hand, preaching is what feeds the congregation. For instance, in my case, I have a young family at home with three young children. This is also my first pastorate, so I have to prepare new sermons every week. Further, I have two churches, not one, with a total of about 160 members. This makes it literally impossible to visit people as often as they want me to visit. Visiting is still vitally important. 30 hours per week in the study is not unreasonable at all. However, that leaves at least 10 hours in the week for visiting. You can visit a lot of people in 10 hours a week, especially if you use the phone to augment.

One of the difficulties also is that people need to be taught that sermon preparation is not unloving any more than the mother preparing a meal is unloving. The sermon should be a major way in which the pastor loves his congregation. The problem, of course, is that people do not see the pastor slaving away in his study at Hebrew and Greek. Of course, specific application becomes almost impossible if the pastor does not know his sheep well. So, in a way, visiting is also part of sermon prep.

__________________
Rev. Lane Keister
Teaching Elder, PCA, North Dakota (working out of bounds in a CRC and an RCA church)
http://greenbaggins.wordpress.com
http://brahmsgreenglove.blogspot.com
http://accenttranslation.blogspot.com
Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

If a church is functioning well, it seems like everyone in the congregation will be getting to know everyone else -- pastor included -- in an organic way. When everyone is pitching in and helping each other, showing hospitality, helping around the church building, engaging in various ministries and so forth, then really getting to know each other just comes naturally.

What about this gem of a "pastor"?

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
Facebook - The Calvinist Vent
Board Rules - Signature Rules - Suggestion Box

It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

It is vital to pastoral ministry to visit your flock. Otherwise, how can one know what their flock is learning? Granted, visiting with them just to discuss politics, or sports can be wasteful. That's not sheperding the flock. But in order to know if he is equipping the saints, one needs to examine the flock.
Richard Baxter speaks of this in "The Reformed Pastor".

__________________
Trey Etheridge
Pastor
Grace Church
Searcy, AR

I Great book. Every Reformed pastor should have one on His shelf. Baxter also believed in personally catechising each family. This may be hard to do with some churches, especially large ones. I'll leave catechism alone for now. It is a whole other interesting topic.

That clip makes me want to fly into a rage.

__________________
Rae W. | Elder @ Grace Central Presbyterian Church | Columbus, OH
Online presence: blog | twitter | facebook

Me too - what a jerk!

__________________
Toni Cunningham, Wife of Bill (Theognome)
Parkwoods OPC, Overland Park KS

"Vice is a monster of so frightful mien, As, to be hated, needs but to be seen; Yet seen too oft, familiar with her face, We first endure, then pity, then embrace." ~ Alexander Pope

As has already been alluded to, the kind of congregation makes a difference with regard to demands. I pastored a rural congregation of older folks, and it was the expectation that a great deal of time would be spent in visitation. I would pretty much just set aside Tuesdays for that task and that would be that (unless a crisis situation developed, of course). The problem is that the time was almost never as profitable as I would have liked it to have been. For instance, it was a chore to steer the conversation to spiritual matters, and often the people I visited would not even bother to turn off the TV. The view of the pastor was simply someone to visit and engage in small talk. While the visitation was not a complete waste of time (one does get to know the flock that way, and the opportunity to comfort the lonely is there), it still encroaches a lot on the minister's time.

With younger (working) families it is different, especially if both work and the kids are in school all day. Unless it is a weekend visitation, that is difficult (I would not want a pastor to just drop in on an evening). Also, it has been my experience that urban congregations (which I am now pastoring) do not wish to be visited to the same degree as rural congregations. That varies, of course, and the older members still want visitation regardless (perfectly understandable).

As stated above, it is hard to quantify the number of hours. And in a perfect world, the elders of the church could help with the visitation. However, as I was told in Mississippi, the congregation doesn't view that the same way (i.e., it's not the pastor visiting).

__________________
Tim Phillips
Pastor, Midlane Park Presbyterian Church (ARP)
Louisville, KY
Husband of Scottish Lass
My Blog: Gairney Bridge
My Facebook/My Avatar

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

"Wherever the gospel is preached, it is as if God Himself came into the midst of us." ~ John Calvin

Maybe you could announce on Sunday your purpose in coming - to engage in spiritual matters. If they're not used to that type of visitation from a pastor, they won't expect it.

Perry Noble is expressing his rage against his sheep. If this clip is representative of his heart then, no, he is not a pastor. But, there are an awful lot of people that are taught these same principles in their pastoral education. The shift that began in the sixties and seventies to the Pastor/CEO model has severely damaged the ability of many pastors, who genuinely are pastors, to see the reality and necessity of personal interaction with the congregation. When a church grows so large that it must be run like and organisation rather than be led like a flock then it is too large.

I have served in congregations where the visitation expectations were so out of line that I could have spent 12 hours a day six days a week with a good four to six on the Lord's Day doing nothing but that. Balance is the key and every congregation is different. There are no hard and fast rules.

I could go on for hours about this topic. But, I won't. I do believe that the fruits of the business organisation model of church structure has encroached in more areas than we would like. That is one extreme. The other is a congregation that does not value the preached Word. Frankly, many don't. They don't see any need for preaching other than salvation messages or some similar bent according to the congregations wishes. What they desire from the 'man up front' is a hospital chaplain, camp counselor, civic leader.

__________________
We shall not adjust our Bible to the age; but before we have done with it, by God's grace, we shall adjust the age to the Bible. - Charles Haddon Spurgeon

Lawrence Underwood, Jr.
Pastor - Providence Family Fellowship / Mobile, Alabama
1644/46 LBC
My Blog - Imprimis

This guy stinks! People actually attend his church??

On the upside, he makes me feel better about my sermons and pastoral care!

__________________
Rev. Toby L. Brown, pastor
Jefferson Center Presbyterian Church--in, but not of, the PC(USA)
Saxonburg, PA
A Classical Presbyterian
Proud member of The Westminster Fellowship

"The happiness of the creature consists in rejoicing in God, by which God is also highly exalted." --Jonathan Edwards

I like to refer to guys like this as "impastors".

Yes, this is an accurate summary, imho, of some dead/dying congregations. I have heard it referred to in a couple of ways -- one, as a chaplaincy model, where that what the congregation primarily expects from the pastor; or two, negatively as a euthanasia model, where the congregation expects the pastor to gently lead them into a blissful death.

Thankfully, most congregations are not like this.

WOW!

There is so much about that clip that disturbs me.

Not in the least that he needs to comb the hair on his ugly looking head.

Like a smart-aleck teenager, I'd like to slap that sarcastic smirk off his face.

Got any more info on this joker?

-----Added 5/20/2009 at 03:38:25 EST-----

Anyone have any tips for sermon preparation AND adequate visitation of one's flock; without neglecting my family duties as well?

Praying for God to raise up more elders to help you handle the load?

This really is a difficult topic....there are so many more responsibilites today than ever before! Most Pastors have their own families that take precedence, and some even have secular jobs to make ends meet. I'm not sure how much time a Pastor should spend in preparation and study. I'm sure that depends largely on the individual and his other responsibilities. I just wonder how one can shepherd a flock if he doesn't even know them? I think it is so vital to know your flock and to know the struggles that they are going through. And honestly, I think so many problems and divisions that eventually destroy churches could be avoided if leadership didn't wait till there was a "need" to visit with people! As someone who is largely on my own....I wish that leadership would meet with me more. I realize that Pastors are busy and have many responsibilites....but the Church really is a Body that needs one another. I believe this also involves the elders and not just the Pastor. So I think it should be a matter of delegating responsibilities more than anything. I don't think that preparing to lead in worship should be sacrificed to visiting with members.....but, I also don't think that it is appropriate to neglect the flock. True shepherding takes getting involved in people's lives and counseling them proactively before a crisis even occurs! Just my

__________________
Yvonne
Reformed Presbyterian
Currently seeking a Church

"A man's most glorious actions will at last be found to be but glorious sins, if he hath made himself, and not the glory of God, the end of those actions." -T. Brooks

My first thought was 'what does he do with his other 30 hours of working a week?'

If it's a large church with a minister for pastoral care, and a minister for adminstration, etc., he probably can afford a 40 hour week with 30 of it devoted to sermon prep. If he's the only guy there, however, he either needs to lengthen his workweek or shorten his sermons.

It would be interesting to listen to a sermon to see if the work shows.

__________________
Edward
Deacon
PCA
Texas

Point well taken, I would only say that even the pastor of a large church with additional ministers serving should be in the lives of people for a good portion of his "work" week. The focus for him will be cultivating the elders and lay leaders as a means of equipping them for the flock visitation they will do.

I just don't see taking reasonable time (10-15 hrs per week avg.) to prepare a sermon and spending time "visiting" members of the flock as competing pastoral duties. Jesus did them both, balance is the key.

My pastor puts roughly 15 hours into a sermon and preaches two per week. More if there are weddings, funerals, or things like Ascension Day. That leaves him only a small amount of time for visits with the 400 or so in our congregation.

Clearly it is not possible for the minister to effectively get to know all the members. This becomes a little awkward when he asks someone who has been attending for a year if it their first time in church.

Thankfully we are blessed with elders in the church who do a great deal of visiting themselves. I believe they are called to aid the minister in this aspect.

__________________
________
Roger
URCNA
Lacombe, AB

I agree.

-----Added 5/21/2009 at 11:14:31 EST-----

A church with 400 members should be big enough to support two pastors. If the church is that size and only has one ordained preacher, it probably isn't fair to him. Time for the congregation to pony up and hire another man to help.

I have seen churches closed by men that thought that they were hired to read books & talk for one hour a week.

A man that prepares & delivers sermons is "a preacher" a man that knows & cares for the congrgation is a "pastor".

__________________
Kevin Rogers
Sovereign Community Church, PCA
Moncton NB

[/quote]

A church with 400 members should be big enough to support two pastors. If the church is that size and only has one ordained preacher, it probably isn't fair to him. Time for the congregation to pony up and hire another man to help.[/QUOTE]


We are in the works of a church plant that will reduce our membership and workload of our pastor in the long term.

If the church plant is going to be local, one strategy would be to bring the church planter on earlier, rather than later, so he can begin to work on the plant while giving the pastor a break.

Our congregation has had success with bringing in the planter, starting out with a Sunday school class of those interested in participating in the plant, morphing it into a worship service on campus, and then moving it to the target neighborhood.

AMEN, AMEN, AMEN. If a pastor is only engaged in his "ministry", 40 hours a week, whether it be sermon prep, admin, visitation, etc. I say he isn't as involved in his flock's lives as he should be.

Another thing, the only teaching going on is on sunday morning? How about sunday evening, wednesday nite, mens bible study, children's catechism, elder/deacon training, young adults, young married's. etc, etc, etc.

Not to mention individual/family counseling, prayer and personal devotional time.

40 hours a week, yeah right.

I grew up watching a young pastor fresh out of bible college, no seminary, begin his day at 0-dark-thirty, hit the cafe for coffee at 6, he wasn't there for purely social reasons....that time led quite a few people to end up in his church as members. Had 4 studies going during any given week. Hit the hospital, nursing home and hospice at least twice a week, sometimes more as needed. Training sessions with his deacons/elders besides the regular meetings. Spent lots of hours in grain trucks and combines with members of his flock, i.e. "visitation". Was engaged in civic things like the welcome wagon, high school FCA, etc. If there was an ambulance or fire call, he was there.

I mean this guy was a workaholic. All this in a community of less than 1500 with 3 other churches! There wasn't a person in that community that did not know him on a first name basis, never-mind they didn't attend his church. Held him in high esteem and knew that if they ever needed anything...he would move heaven and earth to meet that need.

He knew his flock intimately, right down to the grades of the kids. I know, he used to bug the heck out me for dissing algebra.

He was a giant of a man...physically and spiritually, sympathetic yet uncompromising to biblical standards.

Now THAT is a pastor.


"I have to have 30 hours for semon prep." Puleeze!!!

__________________
"Be killing sin or it will be killing you."--John Owen

Tim Goerz
Weatherford Presbyterian(PCA)
Alvord, Texas

Sounds like a guy who is thoroughly neglecting his family.

I think it is absurd spending 30 hrs on sermon preperation and it would suggest to me the pastor is not disciplined in his study or is possibly trying to hide pastoral inadaquacies in dealing with people.

It is true that preaching is essential and that each sermon should be properly prepared. However if you are not visiting your flock then you cannot be aware of their needs. If you do not know their needs then your sermons will have little relevance for the congregation. If your sermons have little relevance for your people then 30 hours of sermon preperation has been little more than a waste.

I reckon it takes around 8 hours to prepare one sermon. However even when one is not actually doing sermon preperation in the course of ones reading of books and private study sermon ideas are developed.

The pastor is a preacher but there is much more to the role of pastor than justpreaching. He is also to shepherd the flock (and to give an account to the Lord for how he cared for the Lord's people), to give guidance, direction, counsel, advice, to be there for people, to be approachable etc. In the gospels we often see Jesus at visiting people in their houses eating meals etc

I think the phrase "...but otherwise, don't bother me..." gives him away and although I don't know anything about him, that phrase is not becomming of one who is in the pastoral office.

__________________
Stuart
Elder, Lambeg Baptist, Northern Ireland, UK

In Him the fulness of the Godhead dwells in bodily form and in Him you are complete (Col 2.9-10)

The Christian is a person who makes it easy for others to believe in God. (RM M'Cheyne)

So you think Rick Phillips, Ligon Duncan, Phil Ryken, and Derek Thomas are absurd for spending 15 hours per sermon prep? Of course, they only typically have to do one sermon prep per week. It is easy, however, to forget that sermon preparation is loving people as well. I don't discount in any way the importance of getting to know the congregation, and spending time with them. However, the main place of ministry is in Word and Sacrament. That is where the focus should be.

It was long reported that Edwards spent "thirteen hours every day studying" and this was thought to excuse his relatively small interaction with his flock. Ian Murray, in his biography of Edwards, exposes the source of this myth. I very much appreciate Edwards' labors but there can be no excuse for a shepherd not attending to the sheep.

__________________
Bob, elder, RBC Louisville. 1689 LBCF

"... Of such also, or of those who make a credible profession of being such, all those particular churches consist, which constitute our Lord's visible kingdom. ... Consequently, all the subjects of His government must have spiritual dispositions, , and yield spiritual obedience- obedience proceeding from an enlightened understanding, an awakened conscience, and a renewed heart."- Abraham Booth 1788