Should women be deacons? - Page 4

PuritanCovenanter · #**121** (**permalink**) 03-06-2008, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thunaer

I already quote this in the other thread.....

Here is a PermaLink to the Quote Office of Doctor

As for the Book.. I have already read and I disagree with it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuritanCovenanter

Quote:

Originally Posted by thunaer

Bill,

I am in favor of recreating a position if it is biblical and exampled by the early church which I quoted those examples.....

What examples? I didn't see any clear examples. I asked you earlier. And I just want to be clear because I have not heard of what you are talking about. And I have been around Presby's for a long time. I have been a member of two Presby denominations. Where in the OC does it have the office of Doctors? I have never seen anyone ordained a Doctor. I have seen a degree of doctorate confirmed upon a person for education but I didn't know it was an office of the Church. Where are the qualifications for this ordination?

P.S. You would do well to read the book I referenced and gave you a link to.

You are usually a little more solid than this. You have no Old Covenant testimony for your understanding of Doctor. This is eisegesis at its best.

dwayne · #**122** (**permalink**) 03-06-2008, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmopussycat

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwayne

I agree 1Tim 3:8-13 plainly tells us the requirments of the deacons are. " Deacons likewise must be dignified , not double-toungued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonestgain. They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. Their wives likewise must be dignefied, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. For those who serve well as deacon gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus." ESV So I don't think Paul contradicts himself in other scriptures.

The situation is not as plain as it appears. As in all exegesis there are two issues here. What is said and what we think the writer, here Paul intended to mean. At one point in this passage Paul uses an equivocal term and he doesn't define it in context. Writing specifically to Timothy, who knew his teaching and practice, the ommission is unimportant. For us it creates a problem.

The word translated "their wives" can also be tanslated "the women" and Paul does not specify in the surrounding text the alternative he intends. Granted that in the text following this verse Paul speaks specifically of male deacons, but this although indicative, cannot be held to be decisive for us since Paul elsewhere refers to Phoebe as a "deacon" of the Cenchraen church.

We must determine the practice of the early church from the following possibilities:

1) Phoebe was an ordained deacon serving in that church in a non-teaching non-authoritative role, coming to Rome for any number of reasons. Outside the church, she might have been a wealthy widow, a slave of a travelling owner or anything in between.
2)Pheobe was a slave who was a member of the church who was coming to Rome, either sent by her owner or with her owner. In either case for whatever reason she may need help from the Roman Christians.
3) Pheobe was a non-slave Christian coming to Rome and Paul refers to her as a deacon in the same way as he refers to the service of other Christians.
4) Phoebe was a "deaconess" ie. non-authoritative office specifically for women. There is no evidence either way for this possibility. Which leaves the other three possibilities.

I think 3 unlikely. For Paul describing her, uses deacon as noun. Where he is describing service committed by other Christians, deacon is a verb or adverb.
1 and 2 remain possibilities for me and I don't see that we have sufficient evidence to categorically exclude either from consideration. Which means that Scripture leaves the question of women deacons as one of those circumstances "concerning the ... government of the church....which are to be ordered by the light of nature and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the word..." (WCF 1:6).

I know that I have left out the phrase "common to human actions and societies" from WCF 1:6 and I did so deliberately. I am not saying my stance is confessional, but I believe that the Confession here posits a principle that can be applied with profit to specifically Christian issues. For there are some matters in Scripture, such as the present case, where we cannot categorically reduce the possible alternative understings to one that is assuredly correct. And instead of dividing from one another over which alternative is correct, we should recognize both alternatives as legitimate possibilities, and recognize that our difference is not fundamentally Scriptural but over which possibility "in our best judgement" is likely. (If anyone is interested in my opinion as to what other issues fall within this class, PM me and I'll start another thread.)

In Acts 6:1-6&Tim3:8-13,we see the qualification of deacons plainly state that you have to be a man, the Greek word for husbands in the text of Timothy 3 is amer meaning a man(properly as an individual male), fellow, husband,man, sir. The Greek word for wife is gune meaning a woman, specifically a wife, wife, woman.So in preceding verse (11) their wives I beleive refer to their wives not to some women deacons Matthew Henry comment on this section of scripture by saying "Their wives likewise must have a good character(v. 11); they must be of a grave behaviour, not slanderers, talebearers, carrying stories to make mischief and sow discord; they must be sober and faithful in all things, not given to any excess, but trusty in all that is committed to them. All who are related to ministers must double their care to walk as becomes the gospel of Christ, lest, if they in any thing walk disorderly, the ministry be blamed. As he said before of the bishops or ministers, so here of the deacons, they must be the husbands of one wife, such as had not put away their wives, upon diskike, and married others; they must rule their childern and their own houses well; the families of deacons should be exaamples to other families. And the reason why the deacons must be thus qualifiedis(v.13)because, though the office of a deacon be of an inferior degree, yet it is a step towards the higher degree; and those who had served tables well the church might see cause afterwards to discharge from that service, and prefer to serve in preaching the word and in prayer. Or it may be meant of the good reputation that a man would gain by his fidelity in this office: they will purchase to themselves great boldness in the faith that is in Christ Jesus. Observe, 1. In the primitive church there were but two orders of ministers or offices, bishops and deacons, Phil. 1:1. After-ages have invented the rest. " I agree with him.