Should / could the Elders of a church use a family / individual giving (tithe) as a barameter of their faith? This is, of course, over an amount of time?

There are a lot of things that may go into it like someone knowing roughly how much someone makes, the frequency of giving, etc.

Rough times in someone's life is taken into consideration as well.

Basically, if someone has somehow been informed that someone makes $100,00 a year but only gives $2000 in giving for the church, should that be addressed, lovingly, by an Elder?

Or if someone gives X amount and then stops giving or gives substantially less w/o going through any harsdships ...

Is giving indicitave of someone's faith? I say yes since it has been provided by the Father but what sayeth yea?

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For the sake of the Name,

John Hill
Faith Community - Woodstock, Ga
Adopted. Husband for 12 years. Father of 5 children.
http://faithcommunitychurch.org- My home church
Rocky Top, you'll always be, home sweet home to me.

Not trying to change the subject, but two related questions:

1) Are there any reformed denominations that are confessionally bound to expect a tithe of their members?

2) If you found out that a member made a million dollars, but only gave 10% to the Church, should they be counseled on their lack of generosity as a potential sign of a lack of faith?

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Tom Albrecht
Member, Covenant URCNA, New Holland, PA.

"I'm not a famous man. I'm just a simple country doctor with horse sense."

Of course, I agree that there are many factors that have to be taken into account. But in general, yes. If an individualover a period of time does not seem to be tithing (and great caution needs to be exercised in making that judgment) then I do believe it should be addressed as a pastoral concern. Of course, just to reveal my presuppositions on this one, I do believe that the tithe is still required.

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Rev. Adam King
Minister without a call (WPCUS)
Stated Supply: Reformed Presbyterian Church
Sterling, KS

No

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In Essentials Unity, in non-Essentials Liberty, in all things Charity.

Robert Paul Wieland
Springs Reformed Presbyterian Church
Colorado Springs, CO
RPCNA

Are you asking if "not tithing" is grounds for fencing from the table?

I think you have to be careful not to confuse Law and Gospel. I think "not tithing" is as relevant as having a short temper, or gossiping, or having a critical spirit, etc...

But none of these should be confused with a credible profession of faith.

Rooting for Tennessee, however, definitely brings into question ...

And is a church member required to give 100% of their tithe to their local assembly or can they give it to other causes as well?

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Also, why would elders be reviewing the giving records of their congregants? And how would they gather info on how much each congregant is actually making?


Should we be asking the wives in our congregations if they are giving "it" enough to their husbands too, since that is a duty? Or do we recognize that the domain of the church stops at a certain point and people need to know where not to stick their noses?

Pergamum;

This was going to be my question...how would the elders KNOW if they are tithing enough of their income?

Are they going to do as the LDS Church does and require it's members to submit their income tax returns so they know exactly how much they make and send them a Bill for their tithes? Or are they going to guess on the income of it's members and send them a bill for their tithes?

I believe as a Pastor teaches on tithing and giving, the Lord will convict the hearts of those He desires to convict to give more..

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Bobbi Clark
Covenant Member
Pinewood Pres. (PCA) Middleburg

When I kept Silent, My bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. Psalm 32:3

Ouuuccchhh, that hurt right thar.

I am a deacon and I don't tithe because I make no money. I have no job and no income.

Am I faithless?

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Andrew DeShazo, Deacon, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"All of us stumble in many ways, but if anyone is never at fault in what he says, then he is mature, able to control his whole body."(James 3:2)

Surely you are tithing, 10% of zero is zero.

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Mike
London City Presbyterian Church
London
England

"Surely, we wish to be orthodox, but we must first learn what real orthodoxy is. Surely, we wish to be progressive, but we must first have a basis to progress from."

Addressing an obvious sin (known adultery, illegal business deals, etc) is one thing, but investigating to find sin when there is no reason to suspect it is something else.

What if a very wealthy man gave anonymously? There would be no record of his giving, but he could be giving appropriately...

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Mason
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA)
New York, NY

"Come now, and let us reason together," says the Lord, "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool." - Isaiah 1:18

Absolutely not. For one thing, it is not the business of the elders to be looking into the financial assets or giving of the congregants. They should have NO clue what people give. Just knowing how much money a person gives sets things up for elders to show favoritism to members who give large amounts. (I've seen this many times in churches over the years.)

Also, who is to say that money is the only thing that can be tithed? What about time? What about material items? Giving money is not a measure of one's faithfulness to the body of Christ. It can be ONE measure.

At different times in our lives, we have been able to give more or less to the church based on our income. Other times we felt led to give money to a particular missionary or work outside of our local congregation. In those times, we have donated large chunks of time to the church doing jobs that would have otherwise required the church to pay someone. Is that not the same as giving money?

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J Baldwin
Keowee Presbyterian Church, PCA
Pickens, SC
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” Luke 10:27

Check Out My Blog: http://reflectjoy.blogspot.com/

The only people in a church that should know who gives what are the treasurer and bookkeeper and their lips should be sealed. (Of course deacons would probably notice if they are tasked with counting the offering and preparing the deposit.)

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Soli Deo Gloria

John Schultz
Member, Riveroaks Reformed Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Germantown, TN

"The reason why we worship God in a slight way is because we do not see God in His glory"
Jeremiah Burroughs

Actually, John, I believe the treasurer and bookkeeper have no business in that affair, when they are not also office bearers in the church.

I believe only the deacons should see how much the giving is by each member. And the deacons may, and should use that information in the exercise of their office, in various ways.

For one thing, through it they may be able to gauge if someone may need some financial help. Also, if someone is not contributing, or only contributing very little, they should investigate way. But it should never ever be used as a club.

Deacons can only come with education in this matter. If it comes to turning into a disciplinary matter, where someone is not contributing for sinful reasons, the matter should be referred to consistory. Still, no one besides the deacons would ever know how much was being contributed.

The angle I am approaching this from is our church's practice where the membership votes on an annual budget. Thus each member makes a vow, right then and there, to contribute. Realizing that is not a hard and fast amount, but the responsibility is joint and several. So don't go enquiring when someone is generally contributing, but falling a little short.

And contributing, other than the pledged amount, falls entirely in the realm of Christian liberty, and is no one's business, not the elders, not the deacons. It is a matter between the believer and God Himself.

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Bert Mulder
Elder of the First Protestant Reformed Church of Edmonton
Edmonton Alberta Canada

What's 10 percent of 0?



DOH!!! Hippo beat me to it.





Bert: How would a deacon bring up the subject to a church member who is lagging behind on giving? That would make for a REALLY ackward conversation... "So.....I noticed that you only slipped a 10 in the plate this week....your kids still have shoes and you appear well fed....what's going on?" The deacon would need to be a REAL good communicator or this could get messy real fast.

No, no, no and no. Oh...no, no, NO, No, nO and finally, no.

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Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

How do you really feel Bill. Some of the No's were not capitalized, making your statement a bit tentative and weak.

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~James Helbert~, Wytheville, VA
Providence Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCUS
TheBibleAlone.com / The Edinburgh Inn
"Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?” - Zechariah 3:2

Completely agree that Elders/Pastors should have no knowledge of giving, and the people should know that they have no knowledge of it, so that they can freely minister without hindrance, without fear or favour.

If someone isn't tithing, God will sort them out if the ministry is faithful. He sorted me out once and for all when I considered the scriptures surrounding Cain and Abel.

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Jonathan Hunt

Preaching Elder
Cheltenham Evangelical Free Church (Confessionally Based)
Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, United Kingdom

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.
-- Thomas Elsworth

No.

Only the deacons should know who is giving what. And only the deacon who is acting as treasurer. (IMO that is a job for a deacon.)

I can not honestly think of a situation that would require the deacons to discuss the specific giving levels of the members as a normal part of the job.

In some cases, if a person was applying for an intrest free loan (yes we did that!) to pay off debt, then we would ask the treasurer if they gave regularly and consistently. He might, if in his judgement it was relevent, tell us the amount, or mention that it was inconsistent. However those loans came with manditory budget meetings with the district deacon, so he would know the circumstances of the persons giving. Since in this case he knew of all giving & spending he could recomend (or not) the loan based on his financial counselling with the people involved.

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Kevin Rogers
Sovereign Community Church, PCA
Moncton NB