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11-06-2009, 11:25 AM
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11-06-2009, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by ColdSilverMoon  Quote:
Originally Posted by Romans922
There is nothing in the BCO because commissioning does not exist within the Church. It is made up to get passed loopholes. There is no commissioning in Scripture, nor Standards, nor BCO for these reasons.
Deacons of Redeemer, from my understanding are given the option on whether or not to be ordained... Option? There is a great confusion here. And to continue to back a church which continues to rebel against Scripture/Standards/BCO is to continue to serve the Devil himself, it is to not follow God's own command (openly and unrepentantly) of the 5th Commandment (as well as others).
Watching the video above, she answers the questions that one is asked for ordination. This only confirms what has already been said. This is sad. Sorry to be so strong in my language, but it is the truth.
| So, Pastor Barnes, all those churches (perhaps your included?) that commission VBS leaders, missionaries (long and short-term), and a variety of other church roles are doing so to find loopholes and in so doing "serve the Devil himself?" I don't think you would agree with that! The truth is PCA churches commission people all the time to various roles and I don't think you would call them rebellious against Scripture and the BCO.
The bottom line is you don't agree with deaconesses being utilized, and that's fine - I understand completely. But if you disagree with them being commissioned then you must disagree with ALL commissioning in every single PCA church. If you do, then you are in the vast minority of PCA pastors. If not, then you are inconsistent in your thinking.
Unordained deaconesses are not contrary to Scripture. In fact, a strong case can be made that they are promoted and established in Scripture. Calvin even utilized unordained deaconesses in his church - was Calvin rebellious against Scripture and a servant of the devil? The Westminster Standards are silent on the role of deacons and deaconesses - so how is Redeemer rebellious against them? As discussed above the BCO does not prohibit commissioning groups of people within the congregation, so Redeemer is not rebelling against the BCO.
I respect your role as a TE, Pastor Barnes, and your desire to maintain the purity of the Church and the PCA. But I must respectfully disagree with your comments - on this issue you are dead wrong. | I removed my comment of 'serving the devil'. But if you must go on about it, one who sins serves the devil himself. 
The commissioning of VBS leaders, missionaries, etc. is found where in Scripture/Standards/BCO? Pray for such people --> ABSOLUTELY, but why are we commissioning? What does this even mean? And yes I would call them rebellious, there is nothing that would suggest that they need to do it.
I would agree that I am in the VAST minority in the PCA. For one, I am on the PB, that right there makes me in the minority!
Unordained deacons/deaconesses (if you would use that name, I wonder what the word in French/Latin is). Unordained servants as Calvin refers to them are the one's being referred to in BCO 9-7. And they are APPOINTED by the Session. Not nominated, trained, examined, elected (and then take vows for ordination and then not ordained).
The point here is not that it doesn't command against it. The point is that it is not brought up. Why? Because it isn't to be done. Deacons and Elders are to be ordained, all of them no matter what. And Ligon Duncan can be wrong by the way, ordination does require the laying on of hands, Scripture shows in multiple places for elders and deacons that the leaders of the Church laid hands on them. The BCO requires it too.
Reductio ad absurdum: The BCO doesn't reject dogs in worship, that means we can do it: my former pastors church plant |
11-06-2009, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Romans922 | [/quote]
Carrying that thought to the next level. Perhaps Redeemer should find a seeing eye dog, whose work is somewhat diaconal in nature, and commission it as a deacon or deaconess.
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11-06-2009, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Romans922
I removed my comment of 'serving the devil'. But if you must go on about it, one who sins serves the devil himself. | I wasn't offended by this comment at all - I just think it's absurd. Quote:
Originally Posted by Romans922 commissioning of VBS leaders, missionaries, etc. is found where in Scripture/Standards/BCO? Pray for such people --> ABSOLUTELY, but why are we commissioning? What does this even mean? And yes I would call them rebellious, there is nothing that would suggest that they need to do it.
I would agree that I am in the VAST minority in the PCA. For one, I am on the PB, that right there makes me in the minority! | If you disagree with commissioning and view it as rebellious, then you need to focus in your own back yard of the Mississippi Valley Presbytery. It's not hard to find that churches in your own presbytery commission all sorts of people for all sorts of things on a regular basis. If that's an act of rebellion, and you are so determined to stamp it out, why not confront your fellow pastors? Why not file formal complaints with your own presbytery? I know its much easier to post things on a message board about a church 1,200 miles away with a big name pastor, but if you are sincere wouldn't you work against the same problem at home as well? Quote:
Originally Posted by Romans922 Unordained deacons/deaconesses (if you would use that name, I wonder what the word in French/Latin is). Unordained servants as Calvin refers to them are the one's being referred to in BCO 9-7. And they are APPOINTED by the Session. Not nominated, trained, examined, elected (and then take vows for ordination and then not ordained). | The Session at Redeemer has chosen to appoint its deaconesses using the above methodology. They still have ultimate oversight. Quote:
Originally Posted by Romans922 The point here is not that it doesn't command against it. The point is that it is not brought up. Why? Because it isn't to be done. Deacons and Elders are to be ordained, all of them no matter what. And Ligon Duncan can be wrong by the way, ordination does require the laying on of hands, Scripture shows in multiple places for elders and deacons that the leaders of the Church laid hands on them. The BCO requires it too. | Redeemer does ordain all of its Elders and Deacons.
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11-06-2009, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ColdSilverMoon Quote:
Originally Posted by Romans922
I removed my comment of 'serving the devil'. But if you must go on about it, one who sins serves the devil himself. | I wasn't offended by this comment at all - I just think it's absurd. Quote:
Originally Posted by Romans922 commissioning of VBS leaders, missionaries, etc. is found where in Scripture/Standards/BCO? Pray for such people --> ABSOLUTELY, but why are we commissioning? What does this even mean? And yes I would call them rebellious, there is nothing that would suggest that they need to do it.
I would agree that I am in the VAST minority in the PCA. For one, I am on the PB, that right there makes me in the minority! | If you disagree with commissioning and view it as rebellious, then you need to focus in your own back yard of the Mississippi Valley Presbytery. It's not hard to find that churches in your own presbytery commission all sorts of people for all sorts of things on a regular basis. If that's an act of rebellion, and you are so determined to stamp it out, why not confront your fellow pastors? Why not file formal complaints with your own presbytery? I know its much easier to post things on a message board about a church 1,200 miles away with a big name pastor, but if you are sincere wouldn't you work against the same problem at home as well? Quote:
Originally Posted by Romans922 Unordained deacons/deaconesses (if you would use that name, I wonder what the word in French/Latin is). Unordained servants as Calvin refers to them are the one's being referred to in BCO 9-7. And they are APPOINTED by the Session. Not nominated, trained, examined, elected (and then take vows for ordination and then not ordained). | The Session at Redeemer has chosen to appoint its deaconesses using the above methodology. They still have ultimate oversight. Quote:
Originally Posted by Romans922 The point here is not that it doesn't command against it. The point is that it is not brought up. Why? Because it isn't to be done. Deacons and Elders are to be ordained, all of them no matter what. And Ligon Duncan can be wrong by the way, ordination does require the laying on of hands, Scripture shows in multiple places for elders and deacons that the leaders of the Church laid hands on them. The BCO requires it too. | Redeemer does ordain all of its Elders and Deacons. | I know of none who commission anyone in my own presbytery.
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11-06-2009, 12:32 PM
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Let's drop the Sproul topic. Nobody was bringing false witnesses against anyone.
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11-06-2009, 12:32 PM
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11-06-2009, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Romans922 Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdSilverMoon Quote:
Originally Posted by Romans922
I removed my comment of 'serving the devil'. But if you must go on about it, one who sins serves the devil himself. | I wasn't offended by this comment at all - I just think it's absurd.
If you disagree with commissioning and view it as rebellious, then you need to focus in your own back yard of the Mississippi Valley Presbytery. It's not hard to find that churches in your own presbytery commission all sorts of people for all sorts of things on a regular basis. If that's an act of rebellion, and you are so determined to stamp it out, why not confront your fellow pastors? Why not file formal complaints with your own presbytery? I know its much easier to post things on a message board about a church 1,200 miles away with a big name pastor, but if you are sincere wouldn't you work against the same problem at home as well?
The Session at Redeemer has chosen to appoint its deaconesses using the above methodology. They still have ultimate oversight. Quote:
Originally Posted by Romans922 The point here is not that it doesn't command against it. The point is that it is not brought up. Why? Because it isn't to be done. Deacons and Elders are to be ordained, all of them no matter what. And Ligon Duncan can be wrong by the way, ordination does require the laying on of hands, Scripture shows in multiple places for elders and deacons that the leaders of the Church laid hands on them. The BCO requires it too. | Redeemer does ordain all of its Elders and Deacons. | I know of none who commission anyone in my own presbytery. | Simply do a Google search for "commissioning" and "Mississippi Valley Presbytery." Or you can search for each church by individual name. You'll find plenty: commissioning school kids, camps, missionaries, VBS leaders, etc.
I only bring it up to point out the (apparent) inconsistencies in belief and practice not only of you, Pastor Barnes, but of a great number of people on here and elsewhere. People get in an uproar over commissioning deaconesses, but don't mind commissioning kids or camps or anything else that isn't so "scary." I don't have a problem with any of it: commissioning is simply a way of formalizing a role within the church. Yet if you're going to take Redeemer to task for commissioning deaconesses, you have a looooong list of PCA churches who in effect do the same thing...
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11-06-2009, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ColdSilverMoon Quote:
Originally Posted by Romans922 Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdSilverMoon
I wasn't offended by this comment at all - I just think it's absurd.
If you disagree with commissioning and view it as rebellious, then you need to focus in your own back yard of the Mississippi Valley Presbytery. It's not hard to find that churches in your own presbytery commission all sorts of people for all sorts of things on a regular basis. If that's an act of rebellion, and you are so determined to stamp it out, why not confront your fellow pastors? Why not file formal complaints with your own presbytery? I know its much easier to post things on a message board about a church 1,200 miles away with a big name pastor, but if you are sincere wouldn't you work against the same problem at home as well?
The Session at Redeemer has chosen to appoint its deaconesses using the above methodology. They still have ultimate oversight.
Redeemer does ordain all of its Elders and Deacons.
| I know of none who commission anyone in my own presbytery. | Simply do a Google search for "commissioning" and "Mississippi Valley Presbytery." Or you can search for each church by individual name. You'll find plenty: commissioning school kids, camps, missionaries, VBS leaders, etc.
I only bring it up to point out the (apparent) inconsistencies in belief and practice not only of you, Pastor Barnes, but of a great number of people on here and elsewhere. People get in an uproar over commissioning deaconesses, but don't mind commissioning kids or camps or anything else that isn't so "scary." I don't have a problem with any of it: commissioning is simply a way of formalizing a role within the church. Yet if you're going to take Redeemer to task for commissioning deaconesses, you have a looooong list of PCA churches who in effect do the same thing... | Again, I would ask you to at least point out some actual instances. I searched myself and only found 'commissionings' that had to do with 10th Pres in Philadelphia, and 'commissions' which are those groups of presbyters which are like committees but have the power to make decisions and act on them. Most of which had to do with the SJC and FV, and others commissioned by the presbytery to ordain TE's.
Do you actually know of some or are you just assuming?
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11-06-2009, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Romans922
Again, I would ask you to at least point out some actual instances. I searched myself and only found 'commissionings' that had to do with 10th Pres in Philadelphia, and 'commissions' which are those groups of presbyters which are like committees but have the power to make decisions and act on them. Most of which had to do with the SJC and FV, and others commissioned by the presbytery to ordain TE's.
Do you actually know of some or are you just assuming?
| Just a quick example from First Presbyterian of Jackson (Ligon Duncan's blog): Quote: |
The summer is officially underway at First Presbyterian, and as usual, we are not gearing down, but gearing up! Vacation Bible School is only a week away now, and this Sunday we will also have the commissioning of the Twin Lakes Summer Staff. Do greet them, their friends and families at the 11:00 o’clock service on Sunday morning. And pray for our VBS leadership and all the wonderful volunteers who make VBS happen.
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11-06-2009, 04:23 PM
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Such subtlety and artifice ought to cause one to blush. Sadly, we are often too jaded for that.
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11-06-2009, 04:23 PM
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As you see above, I don't agree with everything Ligon does...
Noticed a few things from the video:
Male and female deacons are all being installed together (0:03); Deb, elected to be a female deacon is being used as the exemplar to represent the other 17 being installed later that morning; The Pastor states: "Deb is assuming the Diaconal Role this morning." (0:13); Nominated (0:20) by members of Redeemer as a Candidate just as the other elders and deacons; Extensive Training Process (0:28); Interviewed by other officers of the Church (0:35); Elected by vote of congregation (0:41); Deaconess for Deb is an extraordinary calling (1:17); She is charged (1:34); Six Ordination Questions are asked to the woman (4:26); The Pastor clearly uses the word ordination in regard to what is going on (5:09); The members of Redeemer promise and covenant to yield obedience to her. (6:02).
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11-06-2009, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Romans922 The members of Redeemer promise and covenant to yield obedience to her. (6:02). | I haven't taken the time to watch this clip yet, but if this is true then would it be appropriate to say - yikes?!?
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11-06-2009, 06:42 PM
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Understand what is NOT happening in the case of "commissioning" Sunday school workers that IS happening under the leadership of the esteemed Pastor from New York City:
1) not being elected by the congregation
2) not being examined for doctrine and asked to declare differences
3) vows are not taken by the congregation to submit to their authority
4) any vows taken are not the officer vows (e.g. BCO 24-6)
5) not taking a title of governing office
6) not being ordained
7) not being installed in a parallel ceremony to that of officers
8) a sermon charge is not directed at them
9) a sermon charge is not directed at the congregation in receiving them
Mason,
ordination and installation of governing officers of the church, in the PCA, is an ordinance of worship. It is a holy rite of oath, that reflects our doctrinal beliefs as Presbyterians, and it is specified by our Book of Church Order.
You should know that.
There is not a valid comparison with "commissioning" a Sunday School worker. Not even close.
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11-06-2009, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Romans922 As you see above, I don't agree with everything Ligon does...
Noticed a few things from the video: YouTube - Redeemer NYC Deaconess Ordination/Installation
Male and female deacons are all being installed together (0:03); Deb, elected to be a female deacon is being used as the exemplar to represent the other 17 being installed later that morning; The Pastor states: "Deb is assuming the Diaconal Role this morning." (0:13); Nominated (0:20) by members of Redeemer as a Candidate just as the other elders and deacons; Extensive Training Process (0:28); Interviewed by other officers of the Church (0:35); Elected by vote of congregation (0:41); Deaconess for Deb is an extraordinary calling (1:17); She is charged (1:34); Six Ordination Questions are asked to the woman (4:26); The Pastor clearly uses the word ordination in regard to what is going on (5:09); The members of Redeemer promise and covenant to yield obedience to her. (6:02). | As I've stated earlier, the same vows are given to ordained deacons and unordained deaconesses for simplicity's sake. Remember, Redeemer has 5 different worship services throughout the day - such installation/ordination takes place at each service. To maintain consistency they simply perform the same vows at each one, the same way Tim Keller preaches the same sermon at each service. The church is clear that they do not ordain their female deacons. Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott1 Understand what is NOT happening in the case of "commissioning" Sunday school workers that IS happening under the leadership of the esteemed Pastor from New York City:
1) not being elected by the congregation
2) not being examined for doctrine and asked to declare differences
3) vows are not taken by the congregation to submit to their authority
4) any vows taken are not the officer vows (e.g. BCO 24-6)
5) not taking a title of governing office
6) not being ordained
7) not being installed in a parallel ceremony to that of officers
8) a sermon charge is not directed at them
9) a sermon charge is not directed at the congregation in receiving them
Mason,
ordination and installation of governing officers of the church, in the PCA, is an ordinance of worship. It is a holy rite of oath, that reflects our doctrinal beliefs as Presbyterians, and it is specified by our Book of Church Order.
You should know that.
There is not a valid comparison with "commissioning" a Sunday School worker. Not even close. | Scott, I don't why you can understand that Redeemer does not ordain its deaconesses. They are officially and clearly commissioned but not ordained to an office. Therefore none of what you say is really germane to this discussion.
So the deaconesses undergo an extensive interview and selection process...since when is that a bad thing?
I'll say it for the millionth time: Redeemer does not ordain its deaconesses. They commission them, but do not ordain them. This is not a violation of Scripture or the BCO. No one has demonstrated - in this discussion or anywhere else - where commissioning deaconesses violates the BCO. If you are against commissioning in general, then there are about a thousand PCA churches that are just as guilty as Redeemer.
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11-06-2009, 09:33 PM
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Mason, do you feel you have to obey Deb?
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11-06-2009, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by TimV Mason, do you feel you have to obey Deb? | Of course not...why should I?
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11-06-2009, 09:51 PM
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Would this deaconness have leadership authority over men within the church?
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11-06-2009, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by he beholds Quote:
Originally Posted by jwithnell What's really sad is what's behind the issue of "deaconess." It's the question, "Did God really say _________?" Are we really not suppose to eat from that tree? Are deacons really suppose to be the husband of one wife? | I disagree. I think there is a case to be made for women deaconesses. I personally am not buying it, but we can't deny that it can be made. For example, the RPCNA is a very conservative, Reformed, godly denomination, and they have ORDAINED women deaconesses. I don't see their position as being "Did God really say _________?" Though I am sure that they could indeed be wrong about things. (I think they are wrong about hymns being false worship, for instance.)
What I think is wrong about Redeemer is their "Did the BCO really say _________?" | I'm going to agree with my wife on this one on two counts. First, even if it is just what the denomination has said, it can still be "Did God really say that we are to keep our vows?"
The second point I'd like to make is that it is just plain wrong for the lies to be coming out about this. Why do I say lies? Because what is said in political circles seems very different than what is said to the congregation (the email).
If they feel that strongly about it, they should leave the PCA and either join a denomination that is agreeable to their view, or return to what they vowed, and teach it. It is not honorable for someone to subvert the government from within when they have vowed to uphold it.
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11-06-2009, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by TimV
Mason, do you feel you have to obey Deb?
| Quote: |
Of course not...why should I?
| Because the guy who carried out the ordination asked the congregation whether or not they would obey her, and everyone said yes.
I'd like to get some names, and write an open letter to Redeemer's session.
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11-06-2009, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by William Price Would this deaconness have leadership authority over men within the church? | It would seem that "Jenny" (chairmen of the deaconate) would have leadership authority over the deacons.
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11-06-2009, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by TimV Quote:
Originally Posted by TimV
Mason, do you feel you have to obey Deb?
| Quote: |
Of course not...why should I?
| Because the guy who carried out the ordination asked the congregation whether or not they would obey her, and everyone said yes.
I'd like to get some names, and write an open letter to Redeemer's session. | I'd like to mail you the pen and paper.
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11-06-2009, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Withnell Quote:
Originally Posted by William Price Would this deaconness have leadership authority over men within the church? | It would seem that "Jenny" (chairmen of the deaconate) would have leadership authority over the deacons. | I read their web page. I am sorry, but I find their deaconess unscriptural according to 1Timothy 2:12. This is a quote of their duties as assigned under their own pages: Quote:
* Practically assist and encourage Redeemer members and regular attendees in challenging circumstances
* Pray, answer questions and give counsel after the Redeemer services
* Conduct church membership interviews
* Various other administrative and operational tasks and roles
| Sorry, but I find the second and third parts of this, as done in the administrative fashion completely unscriptural. In order to perform these tasks, they must exercise authority. This in and of itself proves unscriptural.
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11-06-2009, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by William Price I read their web page. I am sorry, but I find their deaconess unscriptural according to 1Timothy 2:12. | Don't be sorry. I certainly am not sorry that I find the whole thing disgusting and a blight on the Church of our Savior and Lord. I find it even more heinous that there seems to be a covert activity to change the doctrinal standards through degrees. I came to reformed faith through a RPCES church (which joined with the PCA many years ago). I helped with planting three PCA churches. There is a great deal of distress in seeing this kind of thing happening in the PCA. I am not sorry that I find this unscriptural, I am sorry it was not quickly rooted out long ago!
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