PCA's Ministerial Glut

KenPierce · #1 (**permalink**) 01-23-2008, 01:16 PM

AS some of us have experienced first hand, the problem of too many pastors for churches in the PCA. Yet, there has been little to no talk about how to address the problem.

We must conclude one of 3 things:

a.) God doesn’t know what he’s doing, because he’s called far more men than we need.

b.) The PCA is about to have a major revival, and explode in number of churches.

c.) We are judging far more men to be called than are actually called.

I vote for c.

Since our seminaries, with one exception, are independent entities, and all of them, without exception, are market driven, they churn out candidates on the principle that more is better. The entrance exam is the ability to sign one’s name on his check.

And, we have all experienced the unfortunate passing of the buck between congregation, presbytery, and seminary.

The seminary says, “It’s the presbytery’s job to credential these men. We just teach.”

The presbytery says, “Well, he’s been through seminary. Who are we to say he’s not called? The local church will determine whether he’s really called or not”

The congregation says, “The presbytery and the seminary signed off on the man, so he must be suitable.”

Nobody is minding the store. And, what is more, it reduces “the call” merely to “inward call,” and we become virtual charismatic/pietists who cannot question a man’s internal call by his utter lack of externally-observable gifts and qualifications.

How many churches have been hurt, split, or even closed because of our lack of diligence?

Here’s a thought to start possible discussion:

Men ought to have proven ministry gifts before attending seminary.

The weight of presbytery’s approval should not be in favor of, “We’ll ordain you, unless you give us reason not to,” but rather, “We need compelling reason. Prove to us that you are called.” That proof, of course, would come out of possessing Christian maturity, Biblical/theological acumen, pastoral heart, and, above all, the ABILITY TO PREACH. Sorry to shout, but how many guys have we passed along who have little to no skill in this area in clear violation of the Biblical mandate.

I know that nobody begins out as Lloyd-Jones, but one can usually discern who is a preacher and who is not, even by very generous estimation.

I say this with a bit of fear and trembling, because I likely would not have passed these tests when I was ordained. But, that is irrelevant. As I understand it, this is the process similar to that used by Sovereign Grace: gifts are identified by leaders, and leaders encourage those who appear called to ministry, and only men thus approved are sent to their ministerial academy. That seems so much more “right” than the way we do it.

Time to start this conversation, folks.

BJClark · #2 (**permalink**) 01-23-2008, 02:06 PM

KenPierce;

I agree with you, I think it should be the Pastors and Elders of the congregation a person attends that should be the one's who send or recommend a person for Seminary...

They know the young man, or at least they should on some level KNOW this person before he goes off to Seminary...

I know there are certain qualifications and examining that takes place for Elders and Deacon's before they are voted into office, so why not the same for future pastors?? Maybe it could be handled in the same way, where people in the congregation, as well as the Elders and Deacons make suggestions as to those they know who may meet certain qualifications, then they could be examined further and the congregation as a whole be praying about it..

is it possible they don't do this because many of them go as young men, who have not learned as many life lessons, as someone say in their late 20's early 30's?

SoliDeoGloria · #3 (**permalink**) 01-23-2008, 02:32 PM

I honestly don't understand the issue? Are yous stating that even those outside the reformed faith shouldn't go to our seminaries? Why not? They can learn so much and even be persuaded by the doctines of Grace. Its up to churches to see who they are hiring after when voting someon as pastor. A simple MDIV degree shouldn't dictate the ability for an individual to lead Gods flock.

Romans922 · #4 (**permalink**) 01-23-2008, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BJClark

KenPierce;

I agree with you, I think it should be the Pastors and Elders of the congregation a person attends that should be the one's who send or recommend a person for Seminary...

They know the young man, or at least they should on some level KNOW this person before he goes off to Seminary...

I know there are certain qualifications and examining that takes place for Elders and Deacon's before they are voted into office, so why not the same for future pastors?? Maybe it could be handled in the same way, where people in the congregation, as well as the Elders and Deacons make suggestions as to those they know who may meet certain qualifications, then they could be examined further and the congregation as a whole be praying about it..

is it possible they don't do this because many of them go as young men, who have not learned as many life lessons, as someone say in their late 20's early 30's?

I believe it is a big assumption that elders/deacons are properly trained before entering their office. In my experience, at least, it seems most elders haven't been trained at all...just elected.

In response to Ken, I think the primary, although not only, place of testing of gifts, examining, etc. is to be done at the Presbytery level. This would necessitate a good deal of influence and training done by the individual church (elders), and should be guided by the Presbytery. I know that the session is the one who approves candidates to the Presbytery level, so there is some weight there. The seminaries seem to be lacking in most cases in reporting each individual's status, progress, etc. to their denomination. I believe the sessions of individual churches aren't properly taking care of their sheep, let alone individuals preparing for Gospel-ministry. And it seems most presbyteries are not truly testing their candidates for ministry.

On Whether to Vote to Ordain « Building Old School Churches

[This is not necessarily a reflection of my church or presbytery].

Blueridge Baptist · #5 (**permalink**) 01-23-2008, 02:36 PM

Kevin · #6 (**permalink**) 01-23-2008, 02:40 PM

Glut? What Glut?

If there are so many why don't any of them come up here? Churches here can go for years waiting for a man to accept a call.

One elder on a search for a pastor told me the number one response is "my wife would never leave____(the south, her mother, our state, etc) to go all the way to Canada"!

I think what you mean is that the PCA has a glut of wimps with MDiv's. (IMO)

DMcFadden · #7 (**permalink**) 01-23-2008, 02:55 PM

wsw201 · #8 (**permalink**) 01-23-2008, 03:02 PM

Quote:

The weight of presbytery’s approval should not be in favor of, “We’ll ordain you, unless you give us reason not to,” but rather, “We need compelling reason. Prove to us that you are called.” That proof, of course, would come out of possessing Christian maturity, Biblical/theological acumen, pastoral heart, and, above all, the ABILITY TO PREACH. Sorry to shout, but how many guys have we passed along who have little to no skill in this area in clear violation of the Biblical mandate.

Interesting topic. We currently have 2 men under care and have had little to no preaching experience. One of their issues is that they get no feedback from the Presbytery as to there preaching skills and I don't think our Session feels competent to give a solid critique.

Another problem is that churches looking for a pastor really don't want to take a chance on a person straight out of Seminary. They would like a guy with some experience under their belt.

Quote:

I believe it is a big assumption that elders/deacons are properly trained before entering their office. In my experience, at least, it seems most elders haven't been trained at all...just elected.

BINGO!!! Some even have to be talked into it.

A5pointer · #9 (**permalink**) 01-23-2008, 03:02 PM

The original question presupposes that there is in fact a "call" from God extended only to those who He sees as fit and needed. Is it fair to ask if that is a correct concrete presupposition?

BJClark · #10 (**permalink**) 01-23-2008, 03:07 PM

Quote:

If there are so many why don't any of them come up here? Churches here can go for years waiting for a man to accept a call.

One elder on a search for a pastor told me the number one response is "my wife would never leave____(the south, her mother, our state, etc) to go all the way to Canada"!

I think what you mean is that the PCA has a glut of wimps with MDiv's. (IMO)

How sad, but if that IS the response they are getting, would they really want those men leading their churches anyway...

Kevin · #11 (**permalink**) 01-23-2008, 03:27 PM

You are right, of course. But it is a more than a bit annoying to hear.

JBaldwin · #12 (**permalink**) 01-23-2008, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KenPierce

AS some of us have experienced first hand, the problem of too many pastors for churches in the PCA. Yet, there has been little to no talk about how to address the problem.

We must conclude one of 3 things:

a.) God doesn’t know what he’s doing, because he’s called far more men than we need.

b.) The PCA is about to have a major revival, and explode in number of churches.

c.) We are judging far more men to be called than are actually called.

I vote for c.

Since our seminaries, with one exception, are independent entities, and all of them, without exception, are market driven, they churn out candidates on the principle that more is better. The entrance exam is the ability to sign one’s name on his check.

And, we have all experienced the unfortunate passing of the buck between congregation, presbytery, and seminary.

The seminary says, “It’s the presbytery’s job to credential these men. We just teach.”

The presbytery says, “Well, he’s been through seminary. Who are we to say he’s not called? The local church will determine whether he’s really called or not”

The congregation says, “The presbytery and the seminary signed off on the man, so he must be suitable.”

Nobody is minding the store. And, what is more, it reduces “the call” merely to “inward call,” and we become virtual charismatic/pietists who cannot question a man’s internal call by his utter lack of externally-observable gifts and qualifications.

How many churches have been hurt, split, or even closed because of our lack of diligence?

Here’s a thought to start possible discussion:

Men ought to have proven ministry gifts before attending seminary.

The weight of presbytery’s approval should not be in favor of, “We’ll ordain you, unless you give us reason not to,” but rather, “We need compelling reason. Prove to us that you are called.” That proof, of course, would come out of possessing Christian maturity, Biblical/theological acumen, pastoral heart, and, above all, the ABILITY TO PREACH. Sorry to shout, but how many guys have we passed along who have little to no skill in this area in clear violation of the Biblical mandate.

I know that nobody begins out as Lloyd-Jones, but one can usually discern who is a preacher and who is not, even by very generous estimation.

I say this with a bit of fear and trembling, because I likely would not have passed these tests when I was ordained. But, that is irrelevant. As I understand it, this is the process similar to that used by Sovereign Grace: gifts are identified by leaders, and leaders encourage those who appear called to ministry, and only men thus approved are sent to their ministerial academy. That seems so much more “right” than the way we do it.

Time to start this conversation, folks.

As a PCA church member observing from the pew, you have voiced what I have been thinking for a long time.

KenPierce · #13 (**permalink**) 01-23-2008, 03:55 PM

Where to begin?

First, let me state categorically I do think that non-Reformed men going to Reformed seminaries is a good thing. I am talking about the incredible surplus of men within the PCA.

To Andrew: The presbytery is the primary credentialing agency, to be sure, but ministry happens in the local church, and it is very hard for the presbytery to see the candidate in action, day to day.

Interesting that there are vacancies in the ARP in Canada --Wish'd I had known that back in the day. When I was surveying my options, I wanted to circulate my information in the ARP, and met with much official resistance. They did not appear to want PCA candidates swimming in their waters, even though I love the historic Reformedness of the ARP's. So, that axe may cut both ways.

The sad fact is: there are a lot of men out there who are untested and who cannot preach. Those facts cannot be explained away. It is our own lack of diligence with these men that we aren't more straightforward. It harms our churches, and harms these men and their families, many of whom create massive debt for themselves in seminary (its own problem), move their families long distances, etc., with no confirmation of the call. THere has to be a way to prevent that from happening, and I believe it begins with trial of gifts in the local church.

KenPierce · #14 (**permalink**) 01-23-2008, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A5pointer

The original question presupposes that there is in fact a "call" from God extended only to those who He sees as fit and needed. Is it fair to ask if that is a correct concrete presupposition?

Bruce,

I guess I need to follow up. Are you saying there is no "Call" to ministry, or that what we sometimes term a call is really a desire, as in "Not many of you should desire to teach, brothers..." or "He who desires the office of elder..." that is to be judged based on godliness and giftedness.

If so, how is that not simply semantics? A call is nothing other than internal desire confirmed by godliness and giftedness.

The fact remains the same: more men are being furnished than are needed. Why?

A5pointer · #15 (**permalink**) 01-23-2008, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KenPierce

Quote:

Originally Posted by A5pointer

The original question presupposes that there is in fact a "call" from God extended only to those who He sees as fit and needed. Is it fair to ask if that is a correct concrete presupposition?

Bruce,

I guess I need to follow up. Are you saying there is no "Call" to ministry, or that what we sometimes term a call is really a desire, as in "Not many of you should desire to teach, brothers..." or "He who desires the office of elder..." that is to be judged based on godliness and giftedness.

If so, how is that not simply semantics? A call is nothing other than internal desire confirmed by godliness and giftedness.

The fact remains the same: more men are being furnished than are needed. Why?

Hi Ken,
Sorry, don't quite know how to re-ask my question. Maybe someone else who gets what I am brining up can help. This statement in blue makes the same preupposition I am questioning. Yes I am questioning the assumption that God does exercise a unique call to individual men to the pastoral vocation. A call that some rightly percieve while others do not.

moral necessity · #16 (**permalink**) 01-23-2008, 04:18 PM

I fear that we will soon get off the page of what "giftedness" actually means, with regard to being able to preach. Jonathan Edwards would not be chosen to minister in most churches today, for he read his sermons word for word in a monotone voice, and rearely looked at the crowd. Neither would Paul, who's "bodily presence was weak and his speech was of no account." (II Cor. 10:10). And yet, Edwards was powerful because God chose to use him; and the same goes with Paul. Paul was glad that he was weak in the area of preaching (unlike Apollos), for he "did not want their faith to rest in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God." (I Cor. 2:5). When hearers desire to hear truth instead of someone who is a "good speaker", they will gladly listen to Balaam's donkey. He was one who truly had the gift of preaching!

Blessings!

KenPierce · #17 (**permalink**) 01-23-2008, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A5pointer

Yes I am questioning the assumption that God does exercise a unique call to individual men to the pastoral vocation. A call that some rightly percieve while others do not.

What's the other alternative? People just go into ministry because they want to? If so, from where does the desire come?

KenPierce · #18 (**permalink**) 01-23-2008, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moral necessity

I fear that we will soon get off the page of what "giftedness" actually means, with regard to being able to preach. Jonathan Edwards would not be chosen to minister in most churches today, for he read his sermons word for word in a monotone voice, and rearely looked at the crowd. Neither would Paul, who's "bodily presence was weak and his speech was of no account." (II Cor. 10:10). And yet, Edwards was powerful because God chose to use him; and the same goes with Paul. Paul was glad that he was weak in the area of preaching (unlike Apollos), for he "did not want their faith to rest in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God." (I Cor. 2:5). When hearers desire to hear truth instead of someone who is a "good speaker", they will gladly listen to Balaam's donkey. He was one who truly had the gift of preaching!

Blessings!

Actually, that old saw about Edwards is as false as the "fact" that "A Mighty Fortress" was a drinking song. Both are bunk. Perry Miller, a mid-twentieth century Edwards biographer invented that story.

Please don't misunderstand me. This is why we have presbyteries and not Ken Pierce individually saying who is, and who is not, a preacher. Presbyteries can rightly and prayerfully discern if a man has a preaching gift or not, if there are rough talents can be honed, or whether completely lacking. This is quite separate from any rhetorical giftedness, I assure you. But, what presbyteries often do is criticize the sermon, and then pass the candidate.

But, if you honestly survey the poor state of Reformed preaching today, it doesn't take long to figure out that some men simply cannot preach, even by the most generous of estimations. That is, they cannot take the plain message of the Scripture and plainly proclaim it to their people. And, what I am saying is that it is the Presbytery's God-given job to judge a man's call, not with human wisdom, but with Spirit-given discernment.

py3ak · #19 (**permalink**) 01-23-2008, 04:37 PM

Rev. Pierce, thank you for your useful post. While I can't speak to conditions within the PCA, I have noticed that there seems to be a substantial reluctance to say to someone, "You are not gifted for the ministry." Of course when someone has devoted several years of their life and tens of thousands of dollars to pursuing that goal, it is a crushing thing to be told.

I was speaking with my brother recently, who's been pursuing theological education for 13 years. This past year he listened to Albert Martin's series on A Call to the Ministry and realized that he ought not pursue the ministry. He told me that he wishes someone had explained these things to him years ago. Obviously, there is growth and development, and sometimes people we thought had no promise work out well. But is expensive upheaval the only way to test someone's desire?

Again, thank you for bringing up an important point.

To Charles, I wouldn't overemphasize Paul's lack of speaking ability. After all, the pagans thought that he was Mercury in human form.

wsw201 · #20 (**permalink**) 01-23-2008, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moral necessity

I fear that we will soon get off the page of what "giftedness" actually means, with regard to being able to preach. Jonathan Edwards would not be chosen to minister in most churches today, for he read his sermons word for word in a monotone voice, and rearely looked at the crowd. Neither would Paul, who's "bodily presence was weak and his speech was of no account." (II Cor. 10:10). And yet, Edwards was powerful because God chose to use him; and the same goes with Paul. Paul was glad that he was weak in the area of preaching (unlike Apollos), for he "did not want their faith to rest in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God." (I Cor. 2:5). When hearers desire to hear truth instead of someone who is a "good speaker", they will gladly listen to Balaam's donkey. He was one who truly had the gift of preaching!

Blessings!

Hopefully we're not talking about good speakers but good preachers. There is a difference. There are a lot of men who can stand in the pulpit and can keep the congregation awake, but there are really very few who can rightly handle the Word of God exegetically. Unfortunately, IMHO, there are a number of men who think that the only way that they can serve the church is by being a preacher when their gifts are more suited to being a Ruling Elder or Deacon.

JonathanHunt · #21 (**permalink**) 01-23-2008, 05:19 PM

This is a hugely interesting thread. Of course, as a Baptist, I believe in independency and in the local church as the only God-given entity that should be responsible for training men, recognising and encouraging gifts, and 'laying on of hands'.

THIS IS NOT A STATEMENT FOR DEBATE, it will derail the thread, which is very good.

However...

1. Local churches recognising men and testing their gifts BEFORE seminary is vital. Anything other is foolish.

2. The quote about wimps with MDivs deserves immortality. Speaking personally, I would go anywhere humanly possible that would call me to preach. Fortunately the church that suffers my ramblings is only two miles away, but a call to the ministry is a call. It does not depend on personal preferences...

3. Surely it must be time for all these 'glut' of men (wh