PCA Overture on Deaconesses

Christusregnat · #81 (**permalink**) 04-14-2008, 05:33 PM

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Originally Posted by Craig

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Originally Posted by Christusregnat

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Originally Posted by TimV

Could you please PM me your pastor's email? I need to get my membership transfered.
Thanks
Tim

Tim,

Was this intended for me?

If so, you would reside in the Southwest Presby of the PCA. We're in Pleasanton, Cali (Bay Area). Wanna move?

Cheers,

Wow! What a Presbytery! My wife and I love Northern California...I'll PM estimates on the cost to move us and my monthly income needs. I think we could scrape by with a modest 2,500 sq ft apartment in San Fran

Ha! Who wants to live in S.F.? It's way overrated. We're moving out to the Livermore wine country soon (next door to Pleasanton, where we currently are). Good times, good wines, good weather.

Cheers,

Archlute · #82 (**permalink**) 04-14-2008, 06:15 PM

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Originally Posted by Pilgrim

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Originally Posted by joshua

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Originally Posted by SRoper

Or you have what happened at my church last week; a woman deacon was a part of the laying on hands in the ordination and installation of a new RE. So much for woman deacons being acceptable because the office of deacon is not an office of authority.

TimV · #83 (**permalink**) 04-14-2008, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Tim,

Was this intended for me?

If so, you would reside in the Southwest Presby of the PCA. We're in Pleasanton, Cali (Bay Area). Wanna move?

Cheers,

Thanks! I thought the Bay area was NorCal Presbytery! I'm about 5 hours south.

Gage Browning · #84 (**permalink**) 04-14-2008, 11:05 PM

Are they formally ordained (laying of hands) or simply titled 'deaconess' for their role of service?[/QUOTE]
The short answer is "YES"...some are!

Liberti Church in Pennsylvania definitely laid hands on their women deacons.
You can see the pictures via this link-
Liberti Church
Pictures 19 and 21 clearly depict the laying on of hands.

So can you lay hands on and not ordain? Can you ordain w/out that office having any authority? If some are arguing that the office doesn't have "authority" then why not just follow the BCO 9.7? It says that individual Sessions are allowed to "select and appoint godly men and women of the congregation to assist the deacons in caring for the sick, the widows, the orphans, the prisoners, and others who may be in distress or need." (BCO 9-7). Why not just follow BCO 9.7? In my mind it's because of the issue of authority.

It seems to me that if "we" are "laying hands" and ordaining women then we must remove BCO 9.3 - which says, "To the office of deacon, which is spiritual in nature, shall be chosen men of spiritual character, honest repute, exemplary lives, brotherly spirit, warm sympathies, and sound judgement."

It seems to me that the office is clearly one of authority. BCO 17-2 clearly states it is:
"Ordination is the authoritative admission of one duly called to an office in the Church of God, accompanied with prayer and the laying on of hands, to which it is proper to add the giving of the right hand of fellowship."

Christusregnat · #85 (**permalink**) 04-15-2008, 02:10 AM

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Originally Posted by TimV

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Tim,

Was this intended for me?

If so, you would reside in the Southwest Presby of the PCA. We're in Pleasanton, Cali (Bay Area). Wanna move?

Cheers,

Thanks! I thought the Bay area was NorCal Presbytery! I'm about 5 hours south.

Tim,

My bad. Yes, bay area is NorCal presby. I misunderstood, and was saying that San Luis is in Southwest... silly me.

Move to the Bay Area! We have homeschool families in our church, and we also support a missionary from S.A. (Charl van Wyk). I visited S.A. in 2004, and had a wonderful time.

I see you have lots of kids, and that you do contracting; what sort? I'm a CPA contractor in San Fran, and commute in from Pleasanton.

Godspeed,

Adam

SRoper · #86 (**permalink**) 04-15-2008, 12:37 PM

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Originally Posted by fredtgreco

I would even go so far as to say that deacons ought not to be involved in ordination and laying on of hands, since they are not a court. It would be as if a Session took to itself the prerogative of "ordaining" a minister of the gospel.

Well that's the real issue, and it's seperate from the issue of the propriety of woman deacons.

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So can you lay hands on and not ordain? Can you ordain w/out that office having any authority? If some are arguing that the office doesn't have "authority" then why not just follow the BCO 9.7? It says that individual Sessions are allowed to "select and appoint godly men and women of the congregation to assist the deacons in caring for the sick, the widows, the orphans, the prisoners, and others who may be in distress or need." (BCO 9-7). Why not just follow BCO 9.7? In my mind it's because of the issue of authority.

It seems to me that if "we" are "laying hands" and ordaining women then we must remove BCO 9.3 - which says, "To the office of deacon, which is spiritual in nature, shall be chosen men of spiritual character, honest repute, exemplary lives, brotherly spirit, warm sympathies, and sound judgement."

It seems to me that the office is clearly one of authority. BCO 17-2 clearly states it is:
"Ordination is the authoritative admission of one duly called to an office in the Church of God, accompanied with prayer and the laying on of hands, to which it is proper to add the giving of the right hand of fellowship."

I guess it depends on when the laying on hands is appropriate. Is it only done for ordination? I have seen it done in the commissioning of missionaries, for example. In such cases it is often done with lay persons among those who are doing the laying on of hands. Is this also inappropriate?

doctorcello · #87 (**permalink**) 05-08-2008, 08:18 PM

I am working on a website to archive all links and info about the female deacon/deaconess discussion in the PCA. Please send me your links, etc.

http://www.waysidechurch.org/femdeacs/femdeacs.htm

Thank you!

Stephen · #88 (**permalink**) 05-15-2008, 12:49 PM

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Originally Posted by Christusregnat

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Originally Posted by Brad

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Or you have what happened at my church last week; a woman deacon was a part of the laying on hands in the ordination and installation of a new RE. So much for woman deacons being acceptable because the office of deacon is not an office of authority.

I suppose it would be unlikely that there are any men in that Church who would stand against such blatant flouting of the Standards, the BCO, and of course, the Word of God. Sorrow mounts upon sorrow. Are there any here that are members of that Presbytery that have the courage to bring charges? Of any Presbytery?

Brad,

The Nor-Cal presbytery has an overature to forbid the "non-ordained" office of deaconess.

Redeemer NY has been sponsoring liberal churches in our area. One of which, City Church of San Francisco, joined the RCA and now has women elders. This is a fact, not a speculation about the "woman deacon" issue. Women deacon arguments are logically (and practically) related to mama-elder issues.

Sad.

Thankfully, my pastor, and a few others are moving to change the mushy middle (VERY mushy in Nor-Cal) into something resembling a body of men.

Cheers,

I was curious about your statement, "the N. California Presbytery has an overture to forbid the "non-ordained" office of deaconess." There is no overture like this that was submitted to the stated clerk of the GA, so I wanted to clarify this statement.