I have never seen a clear definition as to what deacons do anyway and if their role was to free up the apostles from "waiting tables" or in other words do the day to day running of the church and care of the people why can't women do it? The people who mow grass, cook food, take care of the bulletins etc. technically are doing the jobs of a "deacon" but are not usually called deacons. The only problems I see with it is that deacons are ordained and women are not to be ordained but it looks like that is changing because most churches are lightening up on women in office.

__________________
Erick Bohndorf, Redeemer Presbyterian PCA
http://qayaqtraveler.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/pr...90&ref=profile
Here is what I have seen to be good and fitting: to eat, to drink and enjoy oneself in all one’s labor in which he toils under the sun during the few years of his life which God has given him; for this is his reward. Ecclesiastes

And homosexuals in office, and evolutionists in office, and so forth. But those old dudes on the Standing Judiciary Committee don't give a fig for that, which is one of the things I like about the Denomination in general.

__________________
Tim Vaughan
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian, OPC,
Santa Maria
California

Just another milestone along my beloved denom's slouching towards Gommorha. Why aren't the leaders of the PCA (and you know who you are) up in arms at this assault upon her peace and purity? Oh... that's right.... never forget the PCA TE & RE Motto: If it ain't in my Church or Presbytery, "what me worry?"

I will not be surprised that in 10 years we'll be debating the ordination of Jezebels as TE's or admission of sodomites to the Table. At what point in this decline will faithful men stand against the tide? After its too late? Great! Then those who oppose the compromise with Belial, yet who've sat idly by while it festered, can stomp off in a huff and add a new acronym to the alphabet soup that Reformed Presbyterianism has become in this country. But all the moral indignation they profess will not wash out the stain of their cowardice and lack of real love for Christ's bride (the kind that produces real action in the defense of her peace and purity). Their shame will be deserved, even if not acknowledged by them.

__________________
Brad
Member- Eagle Heights PCA
Winchester, VA

Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Hey Tim, This is off-topic, but should give you a laugh. Ever heard of Roandoak Christian Commune?

If you're going to an EV Free Church in Morro Bay, I may have visited there 30 years ago. We're the same age, may have crossed paths if you were in SLO back in the 70's or 80's.

I don't know how I feel about women deaconesses. I can see legitimate points both ways. But regardless, I think your reaction is a bit over the top. If they start electing women elders I would leave the church and likely the denomination - clearly, without question against Scripture. But the deaconess issue seems to be semantics as much as anything else, and at the very least a debatable issue. This is hardly a step towards Gomorrah...

__________________
Mason
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA)
New York, NY

"Come now, and let us reason together," says the Lord, "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool." - Isaiah 1:18

What's really just way cool about this is that obviously we are enjoying a period of new revelation! 2000 years of Church history has passed without the benefit of this new understanding that engenders (pun intended) the need for this discussion. Aren't we just so... so... blessedly progressive? No, its not a step towards Gomorrah, it must be a leap into the glorious light of human equality whose sun is the radiant glow of feminism!

Thanks for straightening me out, bro.

You speak the truth. Though we had to leave the PCA several years ago, I still pray for the denomination regularly. There are many good godly men who remain in the PCA and desire earnestly to keep them true to their calling before Christ.

__________________
James Helbert, Wytheville, VA
Providence Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCUS
TheBibleAlone.com / The Edinburgh Inn
"Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?” - Zechariah 3:2

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

My friend, I think you really need to re-visit church history. There are multiple examples of female deacons in the early church, as found on tombstones and as noted by early church leaders and historians. Female deacons were considered essential in some Christian churches in Persia and Syria in order to physically interact with other women, to include baptism; it was considered taboo for a man to interact with women other than his wife in any context. There were numerous female deacons through the first 700 years or so of the church until the Roman Catholic Church made its major departures from Scriptural truth.

Actually, I don't think female deacons in early church history really contributes significantly to the debate one way or another. Just because the early church did something doesn't automatically make it right. But it would be best if you actually had a basis for your statements rather than simply making unfounded claims.

Again, I can understand both arguments, but am personally undecided. The key is to know exactly what the Bible says, and in that regard it seems there is room for discussion.

From a Catholic website, but still a good history of deaconesses, showing they were present in the early church. The discussion of female deacons is hardly a new one.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Deaconesses

Or you have what happened at my church last week; a woman deacon was a part of the laying on hands in the ordination and installation of a new RE. So much for woman deacons being acceptable because the office of deacon is not an office of authority.

__________________
Scott Roper
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA): "A bunch of hippie Calvinists"
Winston-Salem, NC

I suppose it would be unlikely that there are any men in that Church who would stand against such blatant flouting of the Standards, the BCO, and of course, the Word of God. Sorrow mounts upon sorrow. Are there any here that are members of that Presbytery that have the courage to bring charges? Of any Presbytery?

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
Facebook - The Calvinist Vent
Board Rules - Signature Rules - Suggestion Box

[glumly] This is depressing.

But all too common. Human spiritual fraility, combined with our innate arrogance, guarantees that give us an inch and we'll take a mile.

We're not especially deedy at respecting boundaries, always looking to see just how far we can go without going too far, and assuming that so long as divine fire isn't raining physically down upon us, we must be doing alright.

__________________
Anne Ivy
Christ Chapel Bible Church
Fort Worth, Texas

Widowed mother of six, grandmother of eight.

The Ivy Vine (my blog)

I have to agree. The question I will ask before making a decision is why is a female deacon a problem? i understand the issue for Baptists: they combine the office of Deacon and Elder. I can say that Female ELDERS are unbiblical and that should be prevented however.

__________________

Which Baptists do this?

I was attending a certain large SBC out west and they had deacons and no elders: the deacons acted as elders would in reformed churches. Of course this was LaHaye's old church so..... In all seriousness, how do Baptists view the office of Elder? It seems to be either for the pastor only (from the outside).

So I suppose you meant Arminian Baptists, then? Reformed Baptists (and there may be exceptions) definitely view a difference between the offices of Deacon and Elder. Elders are those who meet the qualifications for overseers as outlined by Paul in Timothy and Titus. They are to be able to teach, etc. So they rule, teach, preach, counsel, etc. Deacons do not perform these functions (although they may teach a class, etc. if asked by the Elders). They generally overwatch the finances of the Church, the needs of the Church, serving, etc.

The vast majority of humans always follow the path of least resistance. I complained to our church about ordaining Baptists and Arminians and the two members of the Session had a hissy fit, and when I wouldn't back down things got ugly. About a third of the church supported me, but nobody was willing to do anything except...well, almost nothing. Things like "It will get better" and "I'm a firm believer in slow change".

If you file a complaint in the PCA you'll almost certainly win, and in a case like a woman Deacon laying on hands during an Elder's ordination ceremony you could force the Session to do something like enter into the Session's minutes that they'd made a mistake. But then you'd have to live with how the leadership would treat you.

And BTW by the time a church gets that bad, the men who are willing to take a stand have pretty much all left anyway.

Thanks, Gryphonette! It is refreshing to see that a woman can be as wise and cogent as any man and have the humility to recognize biblical boundaries. Those boundaries were not set by our all-wise God to imply inferiority, but to glorify Himself through demonstrating the necessity and benefit of order and structure, which would include both the excersize of, and the submission to, enumerated stations of authority.

We all have 'offices' in the Church. They are not all recorded in scripture as offices that call for ordination. I am personally disqualified, by my own actions in the determinate will of God, to hold the ordained offices of Elder or Deacon. I am, however, called to hold the offices of sinner saved by the blood of my beloved Redeemer, husband to my beloved wife, father to my beloved children, lay member of my beloved local Church, and therefore member of my beloved PCA. I cannot say that I excel at the exercise of said offices, but I do try to take them seriously.

Women share many of the same offices, and then some others particular to their sex that are as important as any to the health of body of Christ. Wife, mother, and wise counsel to the younger women are a few that no man can perform. I believe that in every case where His people submit in faith to the authorities He has set over them it brings Him glory, because it is so very much a part of the nature of the flesh to rebel against it.

These are disturbing events.

Church history is replete with the rise, refutation, and fall of
multitudes of errors and heresies. Granted, the occupation of ordained offices by women has been asserted and rejected many times in that history. My remarks did not imply otherwise; only that the idea had been rejected by those who historically held to the true faith, and that this recent rehashing is only the product of the arrogance of humanity's perpetual 'modernity'.

Every generation assumes it has a 'new take' on everything it surveys. This one wants to press the PCA to investigate the issue further, and evidently has already begun to change practice prior to allowing the denom to determine its propriety. So you're right... there's nothing new under the sun, but that offers no mitigation of the sorrow to which these events give rise.

Check out the Bayly blog...they address this concisely HERE.

Christusregnat also addressed this on page 1

Sorry RB's! I was thinking Arminians

No problem, Ma'am.

One of my favorite go-to parts of Scripture to illustrate God-ordained roles and tasks is Numbers 4, such as this passage:

29 "Count the Merarites by their clans and families. 30 Count all the men from thirty to fifty years of age who come to serve in the work at the Tent of Meeting. 31 This is their duty as they perform service at the Tent of Meeting: to carry the frames of the tabernacle, its crossbars, posts and bases, 32 as well as the posts of the surrounding courtyard with their bases, tent pegs, ropes, all their equipment and everything related to their use. Assign to each man the specific things he is to carry. 33 This is the service of the Merarite clans as they work at the Tent of Meeting under the direction of Ithamar son of Aaron, the priest." Count all the men from thirty to fifty years of age who come to serve in the work at the Tent of Meeting.

Now, do we really believe that the Merarites were the only people in all of Israel who possessed the necessary ability to carry the frames of the the tabernacle and those otheraccouterments of the Tent of Meeting? And that they, to a man, possessed a deep, burning desire to do so? Not one would have preferred to be a baker or shepherd or something?

The LORD didn't ask their opinion of the tasks set to their hand, or say do this if it meets with their approval...He said DO IT. You, Merarites, do THIS. Gershonites, do THAT. And so on.

I've never seen how anyone can reasonably and logically insist that the LORD wants everyone to do whatever they feel like doing, considering how He didn't hesitate to instruct this family to perform this function, and that family to perform that function, regardless of what they may or may not have personally wanted to do.

And seeing as the LORD loves obedience better than sacrifice, I've also never seen the sense of assuming that the reason women aren't to lead the church, etc. is because they're incapable of doing so. If they're incapable of doing so, then obedience doesn't really come into it, does it? Integral to obedience is that one could choose to perform a particular action - or not, depending on the situation - but refrains due to loftier considerations. What makes our obedience worthwhile is because we women are doubtless perfectly capable of running any number of churches, thankyouverymuch, and doing it well, but we don't because the LORD said not to.

If the primary reason we don't perform a task because we'd gum it up if we did, that takes a good bit of the bloom off the offered obedience, doesn't it?

Amen! How very well articulated, sister. I see you're in Fort Worth, a town where I can't wander without bumping into relatives... my Dad and his 9 brothers and sisters grew up on Northside, and he's the only one to ever leave. I lived for awhile in Lake Worth and Azle. Nice place! Almost as nice as Virginia.

Brother, I hope you are not serious. This is clearly a violation of PCA standards. I would encourage you and others to petition the session against this kind of action. This goes beyond simply recognizing woman as assisting in deaconal work but puts them in a category of spiritual oversight.

__________________
Stephen Welch
PCA Teaching Elder
Nova Scotia :cheers:

I hope so too...but his church has 2 deaconesses listed on the diaconate.

Is it clear? Does the BCO specify who should do the laying on of hands? I understand that it is against the spirit of the BCO, but I don't know it well enough to know exactly what is required.

BCO 9-3 says Deacons have to be men, Chapter 17 implies the laying of hands is done by officers and the right hand of fellowship, being separate, would be others.

I was going to go look this up, because I thought that's what the BCO teaches. I think this overture to the GA is simply pushing a matter that IMO has already been settled.

__________________
J Baldwin
Keowee Presbyterian Church, PCA
Pickens, SC
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” Luke 10:27

Check Out My Blog: http://reflectjoy.blogspot.com/

Your are of course right. It's just the same old pushing and pushing until something gives. Then you push for the next thing, and before you know it, you've got women Bishops and pastors like the NP neoBarthians want.

Yep. Keep pushing the envelope until you find the room you want.

A brother pointed out today that the real sorrow lies in the fact that the overture only addresses whether the ordination of female deacons complies with the BCO. It's coherence with scripture should be the main issue, of course.

The PCA's BCO is available for free HERE.

BCO 9-3
To the office of deacon, which is spiritual in nature, shall be chosen men of spiritual character, honest repute, exemplary lives, brotherly spirit, warm sympathies, and sound judgement.

BCO 17-1
Those who have been called to office in the Church are to be inducted by the ordination of a court.

BCO 17-2
Ordination is the authoritative admission of one duly called to an office in the Church of God, accompanied with prayer and the laying on of hands, to which it is proper to add the giving of the right hand of fellowship.

The BCO is completely clear on this:
The office of deacon is for MEN.

Ordaining men is itself an act of authority, done by a court...17-2 says this court makes an *authoritative* admission to office...women laying on hands during an ordination is an act of authority...a court itself is authoritative...and a woman being part of that clearly makes her position one in which authority is exerted.

This is a clear-cut case.

I would even go so far as to say that deacons ought not to be involved in ordination and laying on of hands, since they are not a court. It would be as if a Session took to itself the prerogative of "ordaining" a minister of the gospel.

__________________
Fred Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
Christ Church Blog

"The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)

Stephen,

Please provide a quotation from Calvin, and give the context and his grammatical and exegetical reasoning, if you wouldn't mind.

Here's the so-called "Genevan Book of Order":

Of the Deacons, and
Their Office and Election

The deacons must be men of good estimation and report,[a] discreet, of good conscience; charitable, wise, and finally adorned with such virtues as St. Paul requires in them. Their office is to gather the alms diligently, and faithfully to distribute them,[b] with the consent of the ministers and elders; also to provide for the sick and impotent persons; having ever a diligent care, that the charity of godly men be not wasted upon loiterers and idle vagabonds.[c] Their election is, as has been before rehearsed in the ministers and elders.
a. Acts 6:1-6; 1 Tim. 3:8-13 b. Rom. 12:7-8 c. 2 Thess. 3:10-12

The first published version had the title:

"The Form of Prayers and Ministration of the Sacraments, etc., Used in the English Congregation at Geneva; and Approved by the Famous and Godly Learned Man, John Calvin."

Note that Calvin approved of the office of deacon being men. Perhaps he recanted?


Cheers,

__________________
Adam B., Wine Country, California, PCA

"He who drinks much beer, sleeps well. He who sleeps well, does not sin. He who does not sin, goes to heaven." Martin Luther

Brad,

The Nor-Cal presbytery has an overature to forbid the "non-ordained" office of deaconess.

Redeemer NY has been sponsoring liberal churches in our area. One of which, City Church of San Francisco, joined the RCA and now has women elders. This is a fact, not a speculation about the "woman deacon" issue. Women deacon arguments are logically (and practically) related to mama-elder issues.

Sad.

Thankfully, my pastor, and a few others are moving to change the mushy middle (VERY mushy in Nor-Cal) into something resembling a body of men.

Cheers,

Could you please PM me your pastor's email? I need to get my membership transfered.
Thanks
Tim

__________________
Christian
One Pilgrims Progress

Tim,

Was this intended for me?

If so, you would reside in the Southwest Presby of the PCA. We're in Pleasanton, Cali (Bay Area). Wanna move?

Cheers,

Wow! What a Presbytery! My wife and I love Northern California...I'll PM estimates on the cost to move us and my monthly income needs. I think we could scrape by with a modest 2,500 sq ft apartment in San Fran