Thread: PCA Overture on Deaconesses

PCA Overture on Deaconesses

As someone who recently began attending an Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (and love it!) this is very interesting. Thanks for the head's up.

Oh, and look at that, my 1,000th post.

Congrats, Seth!

(Any Biola Betty's in your future?)

Originally Posted by DMcFadden

Congrats, Seth!

(Any Biola Betty's in your future?)

Sorry, what's a "Biola Betty"?

My church (PCA) views it as a service role. Hence we have deaconesses. It will be interesting to see the GA's view on this...

allowing a deaconess in the church that would be interesting.. they obviously could not be elders and such. but there are a few female deacons mentioned in the NT. So let them deal with things like visitation, food ministries,- things that wifes would do more naturally or something along those lines

Originally Posted by ColdSilverMoon

My church (PCA) views it as a service role. Hence we have deaconesses. It will be interesting to see the GA's view on this...

its something ive never seen- what do they do specifically thats different from what the men do?..

Originally Posted by Scott

PCA Overture on Deaconesses

Um, What is really interesting about this is that not only has Philadelphia Presbytery overtured the PCA GA, but so has Western Canada Presbytery on the same issue. The only difference is that Philadelphia has an added clause that Western Canada does not and that is, "whose members are representative of various positions within the PCA".

Originally Posted by ModernPuritan?

Originally Posted by ColdSilverMoon

My church (PCA) views it as a service role. Hence we have deaconesses. It will be interesting to see the GA's view on this...

its something ive never seen- what do they do specifically thats different from what the men do?..

Nothing, at least as far as I can see. Here's a description:

Diaconate - redeemer.com

Originally Posted by sastark

Originally Posted by DMcFadden

Congrats, Seth!

(Any Biola Betty's in your future?)

Sorry, what's a "Biola Betty"?

I think he wants to know whether you have a girlfriend.

Originally Posted by Davidius

Originally Posted by sastark

Originally Posted by DMcFadden

Congrats, Seth!

(Any Biola Betty's in your future?)

Sorry, what's a "Biola Betty"?

I think he wants to know whether you have a girlfriend.

I certainly hope I don't! My wife might have a thing or two to say about that!

Practically speaking it wouldn't make much difference in the PCA. Churches like Keller's and several others make statements like this:

Within the class of elder are the two orders of teaching elders and ruling elders. The elders jointly have the government and spiritual oversight of the Church, including teaching. Only those elders who are specially gifted, called and trained by God to preach may serve as teaching elders. The office of deacon is not one of rule, but rather of service both to the physical and spiritual needs of the people. In accord with Scripture, these offices are open to men only.
On the question of deacons, the Presbyterian tradition has not spoken, nor does it still speak, with one voice on the question of women in diaconal ministry, or on the question of whether deacons should be spoken of as "ordained." However, at Church of the Redeemer, we affirm that women may serve in diaconal ministry, and particularly, that women are Scripturally permitted to serve as deacons. In principle, we believe that our denomination, the PCA, should change its current position delineated in the Book of Church Order, and open up the ordained office of deacon to women as well as to men. However, at present, in submission to the PCA Book of Church Order – until the PCA changes its position on this issue – we will not officially ordain women to the office of deacon at church of the Redeemer. We will, however, select, train, and commission both men and women to serve as deacons in an “un-ordained” capacity at Church of the Redeemer. (For a complete treatment of this subject, see “Diaconal Ministry at Church of the Redeemer,” by the council of elders.
Women and Ministry

and

The Diaconate, a group of men and women nominated and elected into the office by the Redeemer members, exists to express in practical ways Christ's command to all believers to love our neighbor as ourselves. We offer help to those in crisis or challenging situations by assessing their needs and working together to find solutions.

So they are saying "We can't allow women Deacons because the PCA doesn't allow it. So in the mean time, we allow women Deacons". And unless things have changed, the current head of their Diaconate is a woman, who took the place of the last leader, who was a woman.

The PCA where I still have my membership goes even further, with "unordained" Deacons that are Baptist and Arminian. The problem will probably come at the Denominational level when someone points out to these guys that all Deacons have to be ordained. The BCO doesn't allow for a third officer, so they'll eventually have to plug the loophole that so many people are climbing through.

Hence we have deaconesses.

Are they formally ordained (laying of hands) or simply titled 'deaconess' for their role of service?

Originally Posted by sastark

Originally Posted by Davidius

Originally Posted by sastark

Sorry, what's a "Biola Betty"?

I think he wants to know whether you have a girlfriend.

I certainly hope I don't! My wife might have a thing or two to say about that!

Just being funny. Students at my college used to speak of students at your college as Biola Bob's and Betty's. It was quaint and anachronistic even "back in the day."

Originally Posted by kvanlaan

Hence we have deaconesses.

Are they formally ordained (laying of hands) or simply titled 'deaconess' for their role of service?

Deaconesses are members of the diaconate for their service, but not ordained members.

Originally Posted by DMcFadden

Originally Posted by sastark

Originally Posted by Davidius

I think he wants to know whether you have a girlfriend.

I certainly hope I don't! My wife might have a thing or two to say about that!

Just being funny. Students at my college used to speak of students at your college as Biola Bob's and Betty's. It was quaint and anachronistic even "back in the day."

No problem. I figured that's what you meant, but didn't want to jump to any conclusions.

Yes this is for all PCA churches, but one thing you must realize about "study committees" in the PCA is that whatever report is produced by the study committee is not lawfully binding on anyone, it rather is to be viewed as "Pastoral Advice".

Overture 9 recommends that General Assembly “erect a study committee on deaconesses” to determine whether the election of women to the office of deacon is contrary to the Book of Church Order (BCO).

Contrary to the Book of Church Order, and contrary to the Scripture, IMO

Originally Posted by Presbyterian Deacon

Contrary to the Book of Church Order, and contrary to the Scripture, IMO

And there is the rub. Why would the study committee not study the question in relation to Scripture rather than the BOC?

And there is the rub. Why would the study committee not study the question in relation to Scripture rather than the BOC?

They have to do both. For purposes of (among other things) not always re-inventing the wheel, the BCO itself says that while not inspired it is to be considered authoritative.

Deaconesses are members of the diaconate for their service, but not ordained members.

Whether or not Deaconesses are Scriptural or not, the above is really a word game. The BCO requires all Deacons to be ordained, so someone unordained can't be a Deacon. According to the BCO you can't use that word for unordained people, and the only reason people do is to sneak around the BCO. According to these church "mission statements" that allow "unordained" Deacons, those Elders could, if they could talk their churches into it, allow their 5 year old daughters to be "unordained" Deacons.

Originally Posted by Southern Presbyterian

Originally Posted by Presbyterian Deacon

Contrary to the Book of Church Order, and contrary to the Scripture, IMO

And there is the rub. Why would the study committee not study the question in relation to Scripture rather than the BOC?

Thank you! My thoughts exactly. I mean, sure the BCO is useful, but the Scripture is of first importance (Or at least, it should be!).

By the way, the PCA BCO already allows individual Sessions to "select and appoint godly men and women of the congregation to assist the deacons in caring for the sick, the widows, the orphans, the prisoners, and others who may be in distress or need." (BCO 9-7).

Thus BCO already allows for women to engage in diaconal service, but that service is to be at the direction of the Elders, and under the supervision of the ordain diaconate.

This overture seems to me to indicate more of a motive of pride than service. Those who speak of a desire to be of service to the church often seem to be more interested in the office or title, than the actual service itself.

Now, before everyone jumps on me...I know I'm overstating the case, but hopefully to make the point.

No change is needed in the BCO. The BCO already provides for women to be involved in diaconal service. It simply does not provide that the OFFICE is open to women.

Originally Posted by Presbyterian Deacon

Originally Posted by Southern Presbyterian

Originally Posted by Presbyterian Deacon

Contrary to the Book of Church Order, and contrary to the Scripture, IMO

And there is the rub. Why would the study committee not study the question in relation to Scripture rather than the BOC?

Thank you! My thoughts exactly. I mean, sure the BCO is useful, but the Scripture is of first importance (Or at least, it should be!).

By the way, the PCA BCO already allows individual Sessions to "select and appoint godly men and women of the congregation to assist the deacons in caring for the sick, the widows, the orphans, the prisoners, and others who may be in distress or need." (BCO 9-7).

Thus BCO already allows for women to engage in diaconal service, but that service is to be at the direction of the Elders, and under the supervision of the ordain diaconate.

This overture seems to me to indicate more of a motive of pride than service. Those who speak of a desire to be of service to the church often seem to be more interested in the office or title, than the actual service itself.

Now, before everyone jumps on me...I know I'm overstating the case, but hopefully to make the point.

No change is needed in the BCO. The BCO already provides for women to be involved in diaconal service. It simply does not provide that the OFFICE is open to women.

I hope there's enough boiling water in this pot for two.

Seriously though, it does seem to be a pride or power issue. What God fearing church and it's elders would say to any member, male or female, you can't visit the sick, you can't feed the hungry, you can't voluntarily clean the fellowship hall bathrooms because you're not a deacon(ess)? Obviously none would. So if a person (again, male or female) feels lead of the Lord to serve his/her fellow man is such ways why is the title deacon necessary? I see no command in Scripture that requires a title for us to serve one another.

*getting off my now.*

The Bayly blog has discussed the women deacons issues...and specifically Tim Keller

Women deacons...the nub of the issue

Tim Keller...women deacons serving communion

A brief discussion of the danger Redeemer Presby presents with their violation of BCO

Tim Keller "rebranding sin" (it's in the USA Today article linked from the blog post)...yes, I know this is not a discussion about deaconesses...but interesting to note.

Originally Posted by ColdSilverMoon

Originally Posted by kvanlaan

Hence we have deaconesses.

Are they formally ordained (laying of hands) or simply titled 'deaconess' for their role of service?

Deaconesses are members of the diaconate for their service, but not ordained members.

What is the title for the men that are members of the diaconate for their service, but not ordained?

Not only does the PCA BCO allow for women to serve under the direction of the diaconate but they also have WIC (Women In the Church). So the idea of having a position called "Deaconess" is unwarranted. Plus there is no Scriptural warrant for this position. Some try and use Pheobe and play around with 2 Tim but it takes some serious exegetical gymnastics to pull it off.

Originally Posted by Southern Presbyterian

Seriously though, it does seem to be a pride or power issue. What God fearing church and it's elders would say to any member, male or female, you can't visit the sick, you can't feed the hungry, you can't voluntarily clean the fellowship hall bathrooms because you're not a deacon(ess)? Obviously none would. So if a person (again, male or female) feels lead of the Lord to serve his/her fellow man is such ways why is the title deacon necessary? I see no command in Scripture that requires a title for us to serve one another.

*getting off my now.*

A deacon is more than a custodian or one who passes out food...it is a position of authority...Stephen was noted for his ability to teach...and it was his final sermon/indictment that led to his martyrdom. After my pastor has been preaching on this subject for the last month or so, I'm convinced deacons do, in fact, exercise authority...and that a deaconness is not the same thing as a deacon.

Unfortunately, there are churches in the PCA that think little of violating the BCO...women have hands laid on them for their "commissioning" at the *same time* men are...thus, it becomes clear they believe men and women may hold the *same* office Liberti PCA doing exactly that (click on image #12)

Originally Posted by wsw201

Not only does the PCA BCO allow for women to serve under the direction of the diaconate but they also have WIC (Women In the Church). So the idea of having a position called "Deaconess" is unwarranted. Plus there is no Scriptural warrant for this position. Some try and use Pheobe and play around with 2 Tim but it takes some serious exegetical gymnastics to pull it off.

Originally Posted by Presbyterian Deacon

Originally Posted by Southern Presbyterian

Originally Posted by Presbyterian Deacon

Contrary to the Book of Church Order, and contrary to the Scripture, IMO

And there is the rub. Why would the study committee not study the question in relation to Scripture rather than the BOC?

Thank you! My thoughts exactly. I mean, sure the BCO is useful, but the Scripture is of first importance (Or at least, it should be!).

My first thought was they will address according to the BCO, because the Scriptures already told them what they are supposed to do and they don't like it. It's easier to get around a manmade ordinance than it is the Word of God.

Originally Posted by Craig

A deacon is more than a custodian or one who passes out food...it is a position of authority...Stephen was noted for his ability to teach...and it was his final sermon/indictment that led to his martyrdom. After my pastor has been preaching on this subject for the last month or so, I'm convinced deacons do, in fact, exercise authority...and that a deaconness is not the same thing as a deacon.

I'm sorry, I thought the discussion was about those in "service roles" needing a title for that function. Thus the genesis of the term deaconess if the person serving happens to be a woman. Maybe I've misread the intent of the thread.

Personally, growing up in an Independent Baptist church, the deasonesses were what we called the wives of the deacons.

I agree with your statement above.

Originally Posted by LAYMAN JOE

Originally Posted by ColdSilverMoon

Originally Posted by kvanlaan

Are they formally ordained (laying of hands) or simply titled 'deaconess' for their role of service?

Deaconesses are members of the diaconate for their service, but not ordained members.

What is the title for the men that are members of the diaconate for their service, but not ordained?

Does anyone know the answer to my above question considering chapter 9-7 PCA BCO. What is the title given to the men appointed by the deacons for their service?

Originally Posted by ModernPuritan?

allowing a deaconess in the church that would be interesting.. they obviously could not be elders and such. but there are a few female deacons mentioned in the NT. So let them deal with things like visitation, food ministries,- things that wifes would do more naturally or something along those lines

Howdy Jeff,

The deaconesses in the New Tesament include the following:

Paul
Christ
The Civil Magistrate
Stephen
Phillip

In the book of Romans, the two deacons that are mentioned are Phoebe and the Civil Magistrate.

First, deaconess is not a biblical term. The Greek only knows of "diakonos" and applies it to anyone who happens to perform services on behalf of others.

Christ served the circumcision; Paul served Christ; Stephen served God; the Magistrate serves God.

The book of Romans is a non-ecclesiatical book. It knows little/nothing of church forms, offices, etc. It knows theology, and lots of it. In a book so structured, the only other conspicuous use of "diaconos" (beside that of Phoebe) is that applied to the civil power, which is the "servant of God" - His deacon.

Anywho, there are all kinds of servants in the NT. The question is, who is qualified for the office of deacon in the church? See Acts 6 for the answer: the male members of the congregation. This is explicit by the fact that Peter gathered the heads of households and told them:

"3Brothers, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them 4and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word." 5This proposal pleased the whole group. They chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit; also Philip, Procorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas from Antioch, a convert to Judaism. 6They presented these men to the apostles, who prayed and laid their hands on them. "

Notice, men were gathered, men elected, men served. Very simple.

What's even more simple is the fact that the deacon's role GREW OUT OF THE APOSTLES / ELDERS' office, and therefore, of necessity, carries authority over the entire church.

Cheers,

Any PB'r going to be on Bills and Overtures at PCA GA this year; my pastor will be. Should wey open a thread under Presbyterian Polity to discuss this overture when it comes up during GA like we did the FV last year?

Originally Posted by NaphtaliPress

Any PB'r going to be on Bills and Overtures at PCA GA this year; my pastor will be. Should wey open a thread under Presbyterian Polity to discuss this overture when it comes up during GA like we did the FV last year?

I'll be on Overtures this year (as last). This Overture is very disconcerting.

I won't go into all the details, since this Board affects nothing, and the GA is much more significant. I will give my remarks there.

You'll have to introduce yourself to my pastor, Arnie Robertstad if you rub elbows; he's also my sister's husband.

Originally Posted by NaphtaliPress

You'll have to introduce yourself to my pastor, Arnie Robertstad if you rub elbows; he's also my sister's husband.

Absolutely.

And I do think it would be a good idea to open a thread on this like last year.

I just won't be contributing.

Originally Posted by LAYMAN JOE

Originally Posted by LAYMAN JOE

Originally Posted by ColdSilverMoon

Deaconesses are members of the diaconate for their service, but not ordained members.

What is the title for the men that are members of the diaconate for their service, but not ordained?

Does anyone know the answer to my above question considering chapter 9-7 PCA BCO. What is the title given to the men appointed by the deacons for their service?

First of all, 9-7 says that it is Session (the Elders) not the Deacons who appoint these individuals.

Secondly, There is no title given to them. That was my point when I said earlier:

This overture seems to me to indicate more of a motive of pride than service. Those who speak of a desire to be of service to the church often seem to be more interested in the office or title, than the actual service itself

They are simply "godly men and women of the congregation" who are selected and appointed by session "to assist the deacons in caring for the sick, the widows, the orphans, the prisoners, and others who may be in distress or need." (BCO 9-7).

If theirs is a desire to serve, and they have not been ordained to the office of deacon, they ought to be willing to do so without a man-made title, IMHO

Originally Posted by LAYMAN JOE

Originally Posted by LAYMAN JOE

Originally Posted by ColdSilverMoon

Deaconesses are members of the diaconate for their service, but not ordained members.

What is the title for the men that are members of the diaconate for their service, but not ordained?

Does anyone know the answer to my above question considering chapter 9-7 PCA BCO. What is the title given to the men appointed by the deacons for their service?

There is no title. Scripture doesn't give them a title so neither does the PCA BCO.

The men who may help the Deacons, just like any woman, are simply Christians looking to excercise their gifts in the church. A title should not be necessary.

IMHO, giving women titles like deaconess is just a copitulation to the postmodern, egalitarian kingdom of man.

Originally Posted by Presbyterian Deacon

Overture 9 recommends that General Assembly “erect a study committee on deaconesses” to determine whether the election of women to the office of deacon is contrary to the Book of Church Order (BCO).

Contrary to the Book of Church Order, and contrary to the Scripture, IMO

Some would argue that deaconesses are contrary to Scripture, certainly Calvin recognized them, but the BCO is often amended or changed.

An overture has been made to the 36th General Assembly of the PCA, but it still must go to the Bills and Overtures Committee (B&O). B&O can still vote against recommending it to the floor of GA, so until an action is made by the committee it is still speculation. I understand the concern of many on this issue, and I certainly have some reservations, but we have to wait for B&O to meet and make a recommendation.