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04-11-2008, 04:38 PM
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| | | PCA Overture on Deaconesses
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Scott Roberts
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04-11-2008, 05:07 PM
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| | | As someone who recently began attending an Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (and love it!) this is very interesting. Thanks for the head's up. | 
04-11-2008, 05:07 PM
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04-11-2008, 05:16 PM
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| | | Congrats, Seth!
(Any Biola Betty's in your future?)
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04-11-2008, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by DMcFadden Congrats, Seth!
(Any Biola Betty's in your future?) | Sorry, what's a "Biola Betty"? | 
04-11-2008, 05:41 PM
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| | | My church (PCA) views it as a service role. Hence we have deaconesses. It will be interesting to see the GA's view on this...
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Mason
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"Come now, and let us reason together," says the Lord, "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool." - Isaiah 1:18
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04-11-2008, 05:43 PM
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| | | allowing a deaconess in the church that would be interesting.. they obviously could not be elders and such. but there are a few female deacons mentioned in the NT. So let them deal with things like visitation, food ministries,- things that wifes would do more naturally or something along those lines
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04-11-2008, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by ColdSilverMoon My church (PCA) views it as a service role. Hence we have deaconesses. It will be interesting to see the GA's view on this... | its something ive never seen- what do they do specifically thats different from what the men do?.. | 
04-11-2008, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott | Um, What is really interesting about this is that not only has Philadelphia Presbytery overtured the PCA GA, but so has Western Canada Presbytery on the same issue. The only difference is that Philadelphia has an added clause that Western Canada does not and that is, "whose members are representative of various positions within the PCA". | 
04-11-2008, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ModernPuritan? Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdSilverMoon My church (PCA) views it as a service role. Hence we have deaconesses. It will be interesting to see the GA's view on this... | its something ive never seen- what do they do specifically thats different from what the men do?.. | Nothing, at least as far as I can see. Here's a description: Diaconate - redeemer.com | 
04-11-2008, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by sastark Quote:
Originally Posted by DMcFadden Congrats, Seth!
(Any Biola Betty's in your future?) | Sorry, what's a "Biola Betty"? | I think he wants to know whether you have a girlfriend.
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Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German Literature and Classics This may explain the old adage about Baptists being Methodists with shoes, and Presbyterians being Baptists who can read. To round out the adage, Lutherans might qualify as Presbyterians who drink to excess, and Episcopalians as Lutherans who know when to say when. - D.G. Hart
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04-11-2008, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Davidius Quote:
Originally Posted by sastark Quote:
Originally Posted by DMcFadden Congrats, Seth!
(Any Biola Betty's in your future?) | Sorry, what's a "Biola Betty"? | I think he wants to know whether you have a girlfriend. | I certainly hope I don't! My wife might have a thing or two to say about that!  | 
04-11-2008, 06:05 PM
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| | Practically speaking it wouldn't make much difference in the PCA. Churches like Keller's and several others make statements like this: Quote:
Within the class of elder are the two orders of teaching elders and ruling elders. The elders jointly have the government and spiritual oversight of the Church, including teaching. Only those elders who are specially gifted, called and trained by God to preach may serve as teaching elders. The office of deacon is not one of rule, but rather of service both to the physical and spiritual needs of the people. In accord with Scripture, these offices are open to men only.
On the question of deacons, the Presbyterian tradition has not spoken, nor does it still speak, with one voice on the question of women in diaconal ministry, or on the question of whether deacons should be spoken of as "ordained." However, at Church of the Redeemer, we affirm that women may serve in diaconal ministry, and particularly, that women are Scripturally permitted to serve as deacons. In principle, we believe that our denomination, the PCA, should change its current position delineated in the Book of Church Order, and open up the ordained office of deacon to women as well as to men. However, at present, in submission to the PCA Book of Church Order – until the PCA changes its position on this issue – we will not officially ordain women to the office of deacon at church of the Redeemer. We will, however, select, train, and commission both men and women to serve as deacons in an “un-ordained” capacity at Church of the Redeemer. (For a complete treatment of this subject, see “Diaconal Ministry at Church of the Redeemer,” by the council of elders. Women and Ministry | and Quote: |
The Diaconate, a group of men and women nominated and elected into the office by the Redeemer members, exists to express in practical ways Christ's command to all believers to love our neighbor as ourselves. We offer help to those in crisis or challenging situations by assessing their needs and working together to find solutions.
| So they are saying "We can't allow women Deacons because the PCA doesn't allow it. So in the mean time, we allow women Deacons". And unless things have changed, the current head of their Diaconate is a woman, who took the place of the last leader, who was a woman.
The PCA where I still have my membership goes even further, with "unordained" Deacons that are Baptist and Arminian. The problem will probably come at the Denominational level when someone points out to these guys that all Deacons have to be ordained. The BCO doesn't allow for a third officer, so they'll eventually have to plug the loophole that so many people are climbing through.
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04-11-2008, 06:14 PM
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Hence we have deaconesses.
| Are they formally ordained (laying of hands) or simply titled 'deaconess' for their role of service?
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Kevin
Far East
Deacon, Int'l Church
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04-11-2008, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by sastark Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidius Quote:
Originally Posted by sastark
Sorry, what's a "Biola Betty"? | I think he wants to know whether you have a girlfriend. | I certainly hope I don't! My wife might have a thing or two to say about that!  | 
Just being funny. Students at my college used to speak of students at your college as Biola Bob's and Betty's. It was quaint and anachronistic even "back in the day." | 
04-11-2008, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by kvanlaan Quote: |
Hence we have deaconesses.
| Are they formally ordained (laying of hands) or simply titled 'deaconess' for their role of service? | Deaconesses are members of the diaconate for their service, but not ordained members. | | The Following User Says Thank You to ColdSilverMoon For This Useful Post: | | 
04-11-2008, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by DMcFadden Quote:
Originally Posted by sastark Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidius
I think he wants to know whether you have a girlfriend. | I certainly hope I don't! My wife might have a thing or two to say about that!  | 
Just being funny. Students at my college used to speak of students at your college as Biola Bob's and Betty's. It was quaint and anachronistic even "back in the day." |
No problem. I figured that's what you meant, but didn't want to jump to any conclusions. 
Last edited by sastark; 04-14-2008 at 11:20 AM.
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04-11-2008, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott | This is most likely a dumb question but is this for the all PCA churches? If they say yes then it's for the whole denomination? Sorry I'm new to this. | 
04-11-2008, 06:49 PM
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| | | Yes this is for all PCA churches, but one thing you must realize about "study committees" in the PCA is that whatever report is produced by the study committee is not lawfully binding on anyone, it rather is to be viewed as "Pastoral Advice". | 
04-11-2008, 07:03 PM
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Overture 9 recommends that General Assembly “erect a study committee on deaconesses” to determine whether the election of women to the office of deacon is contrary to the Book of Church Order (BCO).
| Contrary to the Book of Church Order, and contrary to the Scripture, IMO 
__________________ Sterling Harmon
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04-11-2008, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Presbyterian Deacon Contrary to the Book of Church Order, and contrary to the Scripture, IMO  | And there is the rub. Why would the study committee not study the question in relation to Scripture rather than the BOC? 
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04-11-2008, 07:46 PM
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And there is the rub. Why would the study committee not study the question in relation to Scripture rather than the BOC?
| They have to do both. For purposes of (among other things) not always re-inventing the wheel, the BCO itself says that while not inspired it is to be considered authoritative. Quote: |
Deaconesses are members of the diaconate for their service, but not ordained members.
| Whether or not Deaconesses are Scriptural or not, the above is really a word game. The BCO requires all Deacons to be ordained, so someone unordained can't be a Deacon. According to the BCO you can't use that word for unordained people, and the only reason people do is to sneak around the BCO. According to these church "mission statements" that allow "unordained" Deacons, those Elders could, if they could talk their churches into it, allow their 5 year old daughters to be "unordained" Deacons. | |