PCA Overture on Deaconesses

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Scott Roberts
Ruling Elder, Lakeside Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Southlake, Texas

As someone who recently began attending an Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (and love it!) this is very interesting. Thanks for the head's up.

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Seth Stark
Member, Communion Presbyterian Church (ARP), Irvine, CA
Biola University, Graduate Student, M.A. - Science and Religion
Seth's Blog

Oh, and look at that, my 1,000th post.

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Seth Stark
Member, Communion Presbyterian Church (ARP), Irvine, CA
Biola University, Graduate Student, M.A. - Science and Religion
Seth's Blog

Congrats, Seth!

(Any Biola Betty's in your future?)

__________________
Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

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Sorry, what's a "Biola Betty"?

__________________
Seth Stark
Member, Communion Presbyterian Church (ARP), Irvine, CA
Biola University, Graduate Student, M.A. - Science and Religion
Seth's Blog

My church (PCA) views it as a service role. Hence we have deaconesses. It will be interesting to see the GA's view on this...

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Mason
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA)
New York, NY

"Come now, and let us reason together," says the Lord, "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool." - Isaiah 1:18

allowing a deaconess in the church that would be interesting.. they obviously could not be elders and such. but there are a few female deacons mentioned in the NT. So let them deal with things like visitation, food ministries,- things that wifes would do more naturally or something along those lines

its something ive never seen- what do they do specifically thats different from what the men do?..

Um, What is really interesting about this is that not only has Philadelphia Presbytery overtured the PCA GA, but so has Western Canada Presbytery on the same issue. The only difference is that Philadelphia has an added clause that Western Canada does not and that is, "whose members are representative of various positions within the PCA".

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Rev. Andrew J. Barnes
Husband of Dena
Father of Oliver
Master of Bruce
Pastor of Tchula Presbyterian Church

What can I say, I like blogs!

Nothing, at least as far as I can see. Here's a description:

Diaconate - redeemer.com

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Mason
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA)
New York, NY

"Come now, and let us reason together," says the Lord, "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool." - Isaiah 1:18

I think he wants to know whether you have a girlfriend.

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Davidius
Husband of Emily
Member of All Saints Anglican Church - Chapel Hill (AMiA / Anglican Church of North America)
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German and Classics

I certainly hope I don't! My wife might have a thing or two to say about that!

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Seth Stark
Member, Communion Presbyterian Church (ARP), Irvine, CA
Biola University, Graduate Student, M.A. - Science and Religion
Seth's Blog

Practically speaking it wouldn't make much difference in the PCA. Churches like Keller's and several others make statements like this:

and

So they are saying "We can't allow women Deacons because the PCA doesn't allow it. So in the mean time, we allow women Deacons". And unless things have changed, the current head of their Diaconate is a woman, who took the place of the last leader, who was a woman.

The PCA where I still have my membership goes even further, with "unordained" Deacons that are Baptist and Arminian. The problem will probably come at the Denominational level when someone points out to these guys that all Deacons have to be ordained. The BCO doesn't allow for a third officer, so they'll eventually have to plug the loophole that so many people are climbing through.

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Tim Vaughan
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian, OPC,
Santa Maria
California

Are they formally ordained (laying of hands) or simply titled 'deaconess' for their role of service?

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Kevin, husband of a truly angelic woman, and father to ten.
Zion United Reformed Church of Sheffield
Ontario, Canada

Just being funny. Students at my college used to speak of students at your college as Biola Bob's and Betty's. It was quaint and anachronistic even "back in the day."

__________________
Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

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Deaconesses are members of the diaconate for their service, but not ordained members.

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Mason
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA)
New York, NY

"Come now, and let us reason together," says the Lord, "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool." - Isaiah 1:18

No problem. I figured that's what you meant, but didn't want to jump to any conclusions.

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Seth Stark
Member, Communion Presbyterian Church (ARP), Irvine, CA
Biola University, Graduate Student, M.A. - Science and Religion
Seth's Blog

Yes this is for all PCA churches, but one thing you must realize about "study committees" in the PCA is that whatever report is produced by the study committee is not lawfully binding on anyone, it rather is to be viewed as "Pastoral Advice".

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Rev. Andrew J. Barnes
Husband of Dena
Father of Oliver
Master of Bruce
Pastor of Tchula Presbyterian Church

What can I say, I like blogs!

Contrary to the Book of Church Order, and contrary to the Scripture, IMO

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Sterling Harmon
Presbyterian Church of Coventry (PCA)
Coventry, CT
Deacon
________________

"Whatever is laudable in our works proceeds from the grace of God."
-- John Calvin, Institutes III:xv.3.

"Our Lord God must be a good man, to be fond of worthless fellows. I cannot like them, and yet I, myself, am one."
-- Martin Luther, Table Talk
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And there is the rub. Why would the study committee not study the question in relation to Scripture rather than the BOC?

__________________
James Helbert, Wytheville, VA
Providence Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCUS
TheBibleAlone.com / The Edinburgh Inn
"Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?” - Zechariah 3:2

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They have to do both. For purposes of (among other things) not always re-inventing the wheel, the BCO itself says that while not inspired it is to be considered authoritative.

Whether or not Deaconesses are Scriptural or not, the above is really a word game. The BCO requires all Deacons to be ordained, so someone unordained can't be a Deacon. According to the BCO you can't use that word for unordained people, and the only reason people do is to sneak around the BCO. According to these church "mission statements" that allow "unordained" Deacons, those Elders could, if they could talk their churches into it, allow their 5 year old daughters to be "unordained" Deacons.

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Tim Vaughan
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian, OPC,
Santa Maria
California

Thank you! My thoughts exactly. I mean, sure the BCO is useful, but the Scripture is of first importance (Or at least, it should be!).

By the way, the PCA BCO already allows individual Sessions to "select and appoint godly men and women of the congregation to assist the deacons in caring for the sick, the widows, the orphans, the prisoners, and others who may be in distress or need." (BCO 9-7).

Thus BCO already allows for women to engage in diaconal service, but that service is to be at the direction of the Elders, and under the supervision of the ordain diaconate.

This overture seems to me to indicate more of a motive of pride than service. Those who speak of a desire to be of service to the church often seem to be more interested in the office or title, than the actual service itself.

Now, before everyone jumps on me...I know I'm overstating the case, but hopefully to make the point.

No change is needed in the BCO. The BCO already provides for women to be involved in diaconal service. It simply does not provide that the OFFICE is open to women.

__________________
Sterling Harmon
Presbyterian Church of Coventry (PCA)
Coventry, CT
Deacon
________________

"Whatever is laudable in our works proceeds from the grace of God."
-- John Calvin, Institutes III:xv.3.

"Our Lord God must be a good man, to be fond of worthless fellows. I cannot like them, and yet I, myself, am one."
-- Martin Luther, Table Talk
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I hope there's enough boiling water in this pot for two.

Seriously though, it does seem to be a pride or power issue. What God fearing church and it's elders would say to any member, male or female, you can't visit the sick, you can't feed the hungry, you can't voluntarily clean the fellowship hall bathrooms because you're not a deacon(ess)? Obviously none would. So if a person (again, male or female) feels lead of the Lord to serve his/her fellow man is such ways why is the title deacon necessary? I see no command in Scripture that requires a title for us to serve one another.

*getting off my now.*

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James Helbert, Wytheville, VA
Providence Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCUS
TheBibleAlone.com / The Edinburgh Inn
"Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?” - Zechariah 3:2

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The Bayly blog has discussed the women deacons issues...and specifically Tim Keller

Women deacons...the nub of the issue

Tim Keller...women deacons serving communion

A brief discussion of the danger Redeemer Presby presents with their violation of BCO

Tim Keller "rebranding sin" (it's in the USA Today article linked from the blog post)...yes, I know this is not a discussion about deaconesses...but interesting to note.

What is the title for the men that are members of the diaconate for their service, but not ordained?

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Joe
Presbyterian Reformed Church of Charlotte
SC

Not only does the PCA BCO allow for women to serve under the direction of the diaconate but they also have WIC (Women In the Church). So the idea of having a position called "Deaconess" is unwarranted. Plus there is no Scriptural warrant for this position. Some try and use Pheobe and play around with 2 Tim but it takes some serious exegetical gymnastics to pull it off.

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~Wayne Wylie~
Member, Mid Cities Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Ruling Elder - Inactive
http://www.mcopc.org
Bedford, TX

Job 28:28 - And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

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A deacon is more than a custodian or one who passes out food...it is a position of authority...Stephen was noted for his ability to teach...and it was his final sermon/indictment that led to his martyrdom. After my pastor has been preaching on this subject for the last month or so, I'm convinced deacons do, in fact, exercise authority...and that a deaconness is not the same thing as a deacon.

Unfortunately, there are churches in the PCA that think little of violating the BCO...women have hands laid on them for their "commissioning" at the *same time* men are...thus, it becomes clear they believe men and women may hold the *same* office Liberti PCA doing exactly that (click on image #12)

__________________
Sterling Harmon
Presbyterian Church of Coventry (PCA)
Coventry, CT
Deacon
________________

"Whatever is laudable in our works proceeds from the grace of God."
-- John Calvin, Institutes III:xv.3.

"Our Lord God must be a good man, to be fond of worthless fellows. I cannot like them, and yet I, myself, am one."
-- Martin Luther, Table Talk
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My first thought was they will address according to the BCO, because the Scriptures already told them what they are supposed to do and they don't like it. It's easier to get around a manmade ordinance than it is the Word of God.

__________________
J Baldwin
Keowee Presbyterian Church, PCA
Pickens, SC
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” Luke 10:27

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I'm sorry, I thought the discussion was about those in "service roles" needing a title for that function. Thus the genesis of the term deaconess if the person serving happens to be a woman. Maybe I've misread the intent of the thread.

Personally, growing up in an Independent Baptist church, the deasonesses were what we called the wives of the deacons.

I agree with your statement above.

__________________
James Helbert, Wytheville, VA
Providence Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCUS
TheBibleAlone.com / The Edinburgh Inn
"Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?” - Zechariah 3:2

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Does anyone know the answer to my above question considering chapter 9-7 PCA BCO. What is the title given to the men appointed by the deacons for their service?

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Joe
Presbyterian Reformed Church of Charlotte
SC

Howdy Jeff,

The deaconesses in the New Tesament include the following:

Paul
Christ
The Civil Magistrate
Stephen
Phillip

In the book of Romans, the two deacons that are mentioned are Phoebe and the Civil Magistrate.

First, deaconess is not a biblical term. The Greek only knows of "diakonos" and applies it to anyone who happens to perform services on behalf of others.

Christ served the circumcision; Paul served Christ; Stephen served God; the Magistrate serves God.

The book of Romans is a non-ecclesiatical book. It knows little/nothing of church forms, offices, etc. It knows theology, and lots of it. In a book so structured, the only other conspicuous use of "diaconos" (beside that of Phoebe) is that applied to the civil power, which is the "servant of God" - His deacon.

Anywho, there are all kinds of servants in the NT. The question is, who is qualified for the office of deacon in the church? See Acts 6 for the answer: the male members of the congregation. This is explicit by the fact that Peter gathered the heads of households and told them:

"3Brothers, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them 4and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word." 5This proposal pleased the whole group. They chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit; also Philip, Procorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas from Antioch, a convert to Judaism. 6They presented these men to the apostles, who prayed and laid their hands on them. "

Notice, men were gathered, men elected, men served. Very simple.

What's even more simple is the fact that the deacon's role GREW OUT OF THE APOSTLES / ELDERS' office, and therefore, of necessity, carries authority over the entire church.

Cheers,

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Adam B., Livermore, California
Grace Church of Pleasanton, PCA

He who was punishable by death under the judicial law, is punishable by death still; and he who was not punished by death then, is not to be punished by death now.

Any PB'r going to be on Bills and Overtures at PCA GA this year; my pastor will be. Should wey open a thread under Presbyterian Polity to discuss this overture when it comes up during GA like we did the FV last year?

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Chris Coldwell, Lakewood Presbyterian Church (PCA), Dallas, Texas.
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The Regulative Principle: Samuel Miller gives a succinct statement of this principle when he writes that since the Scriptures are the “only infallible rule of faith and practice, no rite or ceremony ought to have a place in the public worship of God, which is not warranted in Scripture, either by direct precept or example, or by good and sufficient inference.”

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I'll be on Overtures this year (as last). This Overture is very disconcerting.

I won't go into all the details, since this Board affects nothing, and the GA is much more significant. I will give my remarks there.

__________________
Fredrick T. Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
Christ Church Blog

"The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)

You'll have to introduce yourself to my pastor, Arnie Robertstad if you rub elbows; he's also my sister's husband.

__________________
Chris Coldwell, Lakewood Presbyterian Church (PCA), Dallas, Texas.
• Naphtali Press: Presbyterian & Reformed Books
• The Confessional Presbyterian Journal
• The Blue Banner Archive

The Regulative Principle: Samuel Miller gives a succinct statement of this principle when he writes that since the Scriptures are the “only infallible rule of faith and practice, no rite or ceremony ought to have a place in the public worship of God, which is not warranted in Scripture, either by direct precept or example, or by good and sufficient inference.”

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Absolutely.

And I do think it would be a good idea to open a thread on this like last year.

I just won't be contributing.

__________________
Fredrick T. Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
Christ Church Blog

"The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)

First of all, 9-7 says that it is Session (the Elders) not the Deacons who appoint these individuals.

Secondly, There is no title given to them. That was my point when I said earlier: They are simply "godly men and women of the congregation" who are selected and appointed by session "to assist the deacons in caring for the sick, the widows, the orphans, the prisoners, and others who may be in distress or need." (BCO 9-7).

If theirs is a desire to serve, and they have not been ordained to the office of deacon, they ought to be willing to do so without a man-made title, IMHO

__________________
Sterling Harmon
Presbyterian Church of Coventry (PCA)
Coventry, CT
Deacon
________________

"Whatever is laudable in our works proceeds from the grace of God."
-- John Calvin, Institutes III:xv.3.

"Our Lord God must be a good man, to be fond of worthless fellows. I cannot like them, and yet I, myself, am one."
-- Martin Luther, Table Talk
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There is no title. Scripture doesn't give them a title so neither does the PCA BCO.

The men who may help the Deacons, just like any woman, are simply Christians looking to excercise their gifts in the church. A title should not be necessary.

IMHO, giving women titles like deaconess is just a copitulation to the postmodern, egalitarian kingdom of man.

__________________
~Wayne Wylie~
Member, Mid Cities Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Ruling Elder - Inactive
http://www.mcopc.org
Bedford, TX

Job 28:28 - And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

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Some would argue that deaconesses are contrary to Scripture, certainly Calvin recognized them, but the BCO is often amended or changed.

__________________
Stephen Welch
PCA Teaching Elder
Nova Scotia :cheers:

An overture has been made to the 36th General Assembly of the PCA, but it still must go to the Bills and Overtures Committee (B&O). B&O can still vote against recommending it to the floor of GA, so until an action is made by the committee it is still speculation. I understand the concern of many on this issue, and I certainly have some reservations, but we have to wait for B&O to meet and make a recommendation.

__________________
Stephen Welch
PCA Teaching Elder
Nova Scotia :cheers: