Here's an interesting situation I heard through several friends, to which I'll share with you to solicit your thoughts...

An associate pastor has been serving in a church for less than a year. The finance committee discovered that he wasn't tithing. So they brought it up to the senior pastor. The senior pastor confronted the associate pastor about it, and discovered that the associate pastor does not believe in tithing but is willing to start tithing for the sake of appeasing the church. The elders are convening to discuss terminating their associate pastor.

What are your thoughts? Is a pastor's/elder's lack of tithing grounds for termination? While he is willing to start tithing for the sake of appeasing church expectations, he's not convicted by Scripture about it.

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Will Shin
Rockville, MD

I would think that an issue like tithing should have been discussed at the associate pastor's job interview if it was going to be an issue in keeping his position. Even so, if he is willing to submit to the elders and tithe, and there is no other reason to let the associate pastor go, the elders should drop the matter. I do wonder, why was the finance committee checking into the giving of the associate pastor?

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J Baldwin
Keowee Presbyterian Church, PCA
Pickens, SC
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” Luke 10:27

Check Out My Blog: http://reflectjoy.blogspot.com/

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Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland

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Will,

Is this by any chance a PCA church?

...Did the Associate Pastor present any reasons for his stance? At first blush I would say termination is wrong if he never lied (claimed to tithe and did not) secondly if he is willing now to accomodate the wishes of the Church in this matter and begin tithing, I am not sure why they would still wish to terminate? Just my...

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~etexas~

I don't know. I was at T4G conference and met a new brother-in-Christ there who was telling me about his church situation. I didn't ask with what denomination his church was affiliated.

There was a thread on an oversight of giving recently and the general consensus was that such an approach was unwarranted and dangerous.

This thread shows exactly why there was unease. This guy is willing to abide by the church's teaching on what is not exactly a crystal clear teaching but he is still going to get sacked, the love of money may indeed be the root of all kinds of evil and even churches can fall pray to this particular sin.

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Mike
London City Presbyterian Church
London
England

"Surely, we wish to be orthodox, but we must first learn what real orthodoxy is. Surely, we wish to be progressive, but we must first have a basis to progress from."

I was at T4G conference and met a new brother-in-Christ, a lay elder, who was telling me about his church's situation.

From what he tells me, the associate pastor believes that tithing is an Old Testament concept, and no longer applies to New Testament Christians. But he's not dogmatic about it. It's the senior pastor who is pushing the agenda to terminate him.

I told the brother that it sounded to me that the bigger issue is not the issue of tithing, but that the senior pastor doesn't have good relations with his associate pastor. Otherwise, the senior pastor would drop this issue.

Sadly, this kind of thing is all too common in the church.

The good news for the Associate: tithing may very well be an OT standard

The bad news: the NT standard is to be more generous, and give more than the tithe.

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Fredrick T. Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
Christ Church Blog

"The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)

Its hard to see why they'd consider sacking him. He submitted, the church got the money, so, are there more details to the story as to why they still wanted to sack him? Is he also expected to preach on tithing as well, or something?

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Bob Howes
Framingham, MA

A reoccurring thought:

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

There were too many missing details to speak knowledgeably. We really need to be careful about pontificating on cases where we don't know the whole situation.

Generally speaking, however, during my pastorates, I had numerous full time associates. Nobody from our finance committee ever told me about their giving patterns. We did not do that in my congregations. This makes me think that he may not have been giving at all. And, that may be the reason why the issue got flagged. And, yes, I would feel that it was a pretty hypocritical thing to be a pastor of a church and not contribute to its support.

If he is willing to submit, however, then I agree with Will that it smells as if something else is going on besides the money. If he was only "willing" to go along but did so with a bad attitude, that would still be an issue. Otherwise, the senior pastor sounds way out of line. Sad.

There are enough reasons why congregation members roll their eyes over the expectations of their pastors. To preach the need for Christian stewardship and have a staff pastor not participate would undermine the ministry and credibility of the senior pastor. That is generally not a good way to assure longevity for associate pastors, at least in baptist circles.

__________________
Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

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The church pays his salary, right? They could just dock 10% of that if they feel so strongly about the matter....

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Ruben
Moderator

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Here's a curious question: if you are a Presbyterian minister, should you tithe to the church or the Presbytery?

I wondered the same thing which is why I asked about the denomination. Do associate pastors in the PCA belong to the church or the presbytery?

All ministers do: senior, solo, associate and assistant.

Belong to the presbytery, you mean?

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Bryan Maes (on Facebook)
Trinity Reformed Church (CREC mission)
Edgewood, NM

Yes.

Hello Everyone,

I think there is a much bigger issue here. First off, I do not believe tithing is a New Testament command. Rather, our lives our not our own - and all of what we have belongs to God. Anyone who is not a giver needs to consider whether or not they are even saved. The bottom line ends up being the condition of our heart!

My biggest concern regarding the assistant Pastor is precisely the condition of his heart. His response that he would begin tithing to "appease the church" sounds rotten and wrong to me. It shows a hirling mentality and a lack of understanding. The 'why' in our giving is much more important that the 'how much.'

I think I need to repent for my own hard heart.

Brian

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Brian Bosse
Faith Community Church
Tucson, Arizona
Scientiam Dei

I noticed that comment, too, but brushed it off, as I wondered if that was just how the incident was repeated. My thought was that if the associate pastor was willing to let go of it that easily, he probably was giving money somewhere else for some other reason.

Isn't it the case in the OPC that 'assistant' ministers are generally on the session but not members of Presbytery, while 'associate' ministers are members of presbytery?

Brian,
1) you are thinking about the PCA, not the OPC. The OPC does not really carve up the ministry into rankings. Even associate pastors aren't called as such in the OPC.

2 ) PCA assistant pastors ARE called by the session, and not the congregation, and so serve at their call, but they are examined by presbytery same as all other true pastors and their call acknowledged, and they are full members of Presbytery. I was such an assistant pastor. And I was a member of Presbytery, following my ordination.

3) however some churches do take "staff" which are NOT presbytery members, and call them "pastors" they really aren't, and shouldn't take the designation. They have not been ordained.

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Rev. Bruce G. Buchanan
ChainOLakes Presbyterian Church, CentralLake, MI


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