This is breaking off from the thread about reaching todays youth with reformed theology. I am wondering how many of you attend churches that have youth ministers. If you do, what do you think of it?

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Adam - Pennsylvania - Baptist

http://www.myspace.com/aleavelle

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/p...5655012&ref=nf

Yeah, our church has a youth pastor, me. I am also the toddlers. young adults, middle age, and senior citizen's pastor.

__________________
Jonathan Hunt

Elder holding forth the word of life at:
Cheltenham Evangelical Free Church (Confessionally Based)
Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, United Kingdom

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.
-- Thomas Elsworth

Nope. The church I worked at before just hired a "Families and Youth Ministries Director".

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Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, Licentiate, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
Member Fairmount ARP Church
Pittsburgh, PA

Deo Vindice

Adam,

What do you mean by Youth Pastors? Do ya mean a person, other than the pastor, that organizes events, etc. for the youth. Or do ya mean that the youth is together and he teaches them while the adults are with the pastor? Or do ya mean something else ...?

__________________
For the sake of the Name,

John Hill
Faith Community - Woodstock, Ga
Adopted. Husband for 13 years. Father of 5 children.
http://faithcommunitychurch.org- My home church
Rocky Top, you'll always be, home sweet home to me.

"Youth Pastor" typically means someone who is hired specifically to shepherd (too strong a word for many in such positions) the youth of the church. Usually this is NOT a 'replacement' for the pastor as you asked - that is, while the 'adults' are in with the 'normal' pastor, the youth are listening to the 'youth' pastor. That would be exceedingly odd (though I know some of the monstrous mega churches in the south do this, where the youth watch music videos and such during the normal church service).

__________________
Todd K. Pedlar
member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA
http://inprincipiodeus.solideogloria.com
http://puritanwisdom.blogspot.com

"As God did not at first choose you because you were high, He will not now forsake you because you are low."
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We have two pastors, who minister to the congregation as a whole. Children are with the adults during the worship service, so there isn't any need for a special "youth pastor".

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Matt
Reformed Baptist
Christ Community Church

That is what I suspected but Adam threw "Youth Minister" into the mix which can be interpreted as something a "little" different.

We have an elder that is facilitates a ton of the youth curriculem, activities, etc. but besides 4 and under (we have our 3 year old in with us), children usually come in with the adults.

I have been a member of a church with a youth pastor as you described and yes the youth watched a lot of things and dressed in a way that suggested that they, well, they dressed terrible but that is Off Topic.

That's what I'm talking about, and no I don't mean the youth have a separate service on the Lord's day but they may have special services/meetings say on Sunday evenings or something as well as mission trips and other such things lead by this person.

Someone kicked around the idea of trying to make me this for about an hour...

Then they realized I'm horrible with kids and way too wordy to ever convey anything intelligible to them.

They still kept me on as their Sunday School teacher.

Personally, I wouldn't want to put someone akin to a "youth pastor" in charge of shepherding children. Usually, this type of job isn't given to someone who is mature enough to actually shepherd anyone, much less kids. The Pastor should still be keeping tabs on those kids instead of deferring to the youth pastor.

__________________
Andrew DeShazo
Husband of Kathryn
Father of Phillip-Giles B. DeShazo
Deacon
Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"From out of the depth of unbroken Infinfity arose the Question, "Who am I?" And to that Question there is the answer, "I am God!" -Meher Baba, died 1969.

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Christ, died 33 AD, ressurected three days later.

Yes, we have a TE that is charge of shepherding the youth in our church. He writes the curriculum for the Reformed Youth Fellowship and leads the youth in going thru the WCF. His official title is Asst Pastor but one of his main focuses is the youth of the church.

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Kenneth Kneip
Member @ New St. Peter's PC (PCA), Dallas TX
Pastoral Intern @ New Covenant PC (PCA), Dallas TX
M. Div. student @ Redeemer Seminary, Dallas TX

At my church we have one pastor and all the kids, teens, and adults are together for the worship service to hear him preach. However, we do have a youth leader who is a seminary student and who occasionally provides pulpit supply at our church and other OP churches in the area. He leads a youth group meeting on Saturday nights, organizes youth events, and meets individually with the youth in our church. He has been a great influence on the youth in our church and the youth group meetings typically include an hour or more of good, deep, reformed teaching.

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Dan Dorman
Member of Pilgrim OPC in my hometown-Bangor, Maine
Currently attending Christ the King OPC in Longview, Texas, where I am a college student

“The happiness of the creature consists in rejoicing in God, by which also God is magnified and exalted” -Jonathan Edwards
What is meant by "Christian Hedonism"?

We have no "youth Pastor" as such, we have a RUF Pastor connected with the Church, that is about as close as we get.

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et

what you've explained here is exactly what I am talking about.

Is this what you are hoping to do? There are several of that type of position located throughout PA, on this site, though most appear to be 2 hours from where you live now.

600+ Christian Jobs and Christian Employment at ChristiaNet.com

We have a Pastor of Students. Our church has 4 Pastors. A senior pastor (whom Preaches on the Lord's Day morning and evening, and leads our Wednesday service as well) a pastor of Evangelism/education,a pastor of music and senior's. Our youth services are before the Sunday night worship service and the Wednesday night service, they are never set apart from them. The Pastor of Students is the head over all the SS classes of the 5yrOld to College Singles. He makes arrangements for and brings the children and youth to their church camps and also is head over there other events/activities. He is in his mid to late 30's and is an ordained elder with a degree or two from seminary.

At my old church there was a 22 yr old guy with no biblical understanding who hung out with the youth and taught them the type of things you might hear Joel Osteen say. "Just love everybody and try to be a good person."

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Bryan Riddle
1689 London Baptist Confession
Bethel Baptist Church Owasso, Oklahoma

we have much the same at our church, but the teens get together during the week or Sunday nights for Bible Study.

he also goes with the teens on Mission's trips over the summer, and there are some Sunday's when he steps in and teaches from the pulpit.

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Bobbi Clark
Covenant Member
Pinewood Pres. (PCA) Middleburg

When I kept Silent, My bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. Psalm 32:3

We are blessed to have four "Pastors"- one each primarily for teaching, pastoral care, a younger teaching intern, and one for youth. Generally, but not always, all are ordained teaching elders.

The youth Pastor coordinates a lot of events with youth and is an interface with the parents of the youth. This seems to work well as there is enough of a biblical focus and involvement of youth with others in ruling and teaching authority.

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Scott
PCA
North Carolina


"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)"
Hebrews 10:23

I don't think our church even has "youth." I've ever seen anyone under 20, other than the occasional infant...

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Mason
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA)
New York, NY

"Come now, and let us reason together," says the Lord, "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool." - Isaiah 1:18

I started during seminary as a part-time youth pastor. Upon graduation, the church called me as a full-time associate pastor with primary responsibilities for youth. In my next two churches (as solo and senior pastor), I always had a youth pastor on my staff part-time or full-time. Typically, they were seminary students or young pastors in their first placement after seminary. In my last pastorate, we had four full time pastors/directors who were seminary grads and a few part-time folks. So, there was a full-time man and a part-time one covering the range from jr. high through college aged.

As far as what I think about it . . . it is a mixed bag. Generally such persons lack the requisite maturity or time needed to really do a first-rate job of discipleship. During 22 years of my pastoral work, I always went with the kids to camp (one week with sr. highs and one week with jr. highs) along with 10 or more other senior pastors and their youth staff. We took turns providing the teaching and speaking tasks to between 350-500 teens.

It would be VERY unusual for an evangelical congregation (other than a tiny one) NOT to have a person as youth pastor.

__________________
Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

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I recall reading a compelling article by a youth pastor who became convinced that the there really should be no need for a youth pastor if PARENTS would only do their job. Rather, parents typically want to outsource this primary God-given responsibility to another "professional" at the church. The time of bible study, fun and games, etc, should be done in the context of families doing these things. The author then decided to shift his ministry to training parents, with the ultimate goal of "working himself out of a job".

I appreciate that kind of attitude.

My church has about 220 members, with a healthy sized youth group. We do not have a youth pastor, and with the healthy level of parental involvement, I don't anticipate we'll go down the road of specialization.

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Mark Van Der Molen
Immanuel URC
DeMotte, Indiana

We have a college pastor, a pastor for the high-school youth, a director for middle-school youth, and a director for younger children. The first three are full-time staff positions; I don't know if the latter is full-time. The pastors are not actually TEs.

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Scott Roper
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Winston-Salem, NC
scottandjenny.ws

We had a youth pastor, but he and his wife are leaving for missionary work in Kurdistan (northern Iraq) in six days. We're getting a new youth pastor as soon as he can sell his house in upstate New York. He graduated from Liberty University and is a big Falwell fan, so I'll have to indoctrinate him on some Reformed teachings.

Yeah, sorry, I don't attend a Reformed church. That will change this coming school year, though. Praise the Lord.

__________________
Ben Maas. . . . .Facebook
In college, attending First Presbyterian Church (PCUSA), Ada, OH, and
Belle Center Reformed Presbyterian Church (RPCNA), Belle Center, OH
When at home, attending Covenant Presbyterian Church (OPC), Mansfield, OH

“Prayer is as natural an expression of faith as breathing is of life.”
-Jonathan Edwards-

Do you recall where that article was from?

Are you saying that some churches have a 'normal' pastor???

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That's a rare bird.

Then scripturally... should they be labelled pastors at all?

I know that these days the term 'pastor' gets bandied about a lot - some churches have 'Administration Pastors', 'Outreach Pastors', 'Youth Pastors' when really what they have is a typist, an evangelist, and a Sunday School Teacher.

One of these days there's going to be a 'Pastor of Sanitation' who has charge of the fifty restrooms in the megachurches of today...

I have yet to see a valid biblical argument for segregating a church based on demographic distinctions. Such arguments are invariably philosophical and pragmatic in their reasoning, with no clear biblical precedent or foundation. To answer the question, in a word, "no." But, every parent of a youth is, in essence, a shepherd of youth. Our vision is to facilitate the discipleship of every youth/child by the shepherd that God has already assigned them, their fathers.

__________________
For the Glory of our King,
Joe Johnson
Slave of Christ, husband, father, Preacherboy at Cornerstone Community Church, Escanaba, MI. and TMS graduate. Personal website - SoundLife.org

I do not know, and I do not say, that a person cannot believe in Revelation and in evolution, too, for a man may believe that which is infinitely wise and also that which is only asinine. ~ CHS

I'm not in favor of "segregating", but I do think it makes good sense to allow for specific pastoral attention to be given along some demographic lines. The Church is certainly one and much of what is done should be done together. Still, we as a church and I as a father have found it helpful to have a pastor lead some specific ministries that build up our young people. Such activities/ministries are not in place of parents, but an assistance to parents.

While not meant to be an apologetic for hyper-segregated youth ministries, I do think 1 John 2 displays some demographically specific and particular instructions:

1 John 2:12 I am writing to you, little children,
because your sins are forgiven for his name's sake.
13 I am writing to you, fathers,
because you know him who is from the beginning.
I am writing to you, young men,
because you have overcome the evil one.
I write to you, children,
because you know the Father.
14 I write to you, fathers,
because you know him who is from the beginning.
I write to you, young men,
because you are strong,
and the word of God abides in you,
and you have overcome the evil one.

There are other passages that address particular demographics in the church (employers, employees, widows, etc.). In this light, demographically specific focuses in the church are certainly not unbiblical.

Our youth pastor is a faithful discipler who comes along side myself and other parents in order to uphold and enhance the training we are providing our children.

__________________
Tony Felich
Pastor, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Overland Park, Kansas
www.redeemer-pca.org
blog: http://reepicheep-ajf.blogspot.com

This in my experience is how "reformed" Christians seem to feel over all (majority), and while I respect it, I disagree completely. I don't think a youth pastor "segregates" a Church but instead if doing his job correctly, brings it closer together. While every parent may be a "shepherd" of youth, that doesn't always happen. Also, there are fatherless children in our churches that I feel are getting ignored by many answers in this thread. I think some make the mistake of believing all church families are healthy families.

I don't recall, but I will search, and when I find it, will post a link here.

I don't assume that all families are healthy and I recognize that there are fatherless children. But there are also widows, widowers, lonely single girls and guys, etc.......should they get their own specialized pastor as well?

I think the underlying issue is differing views on the biblical parameters of a preacher, an elder and a deacon. Is there really something unique about ministering to youth compared to anyone else? Having been involved in lay youth ministry myself, I don't buy it. We all have the same spiritual condition requiring the same remedy. Much of the youth pastor idea is born of the niche-marketing mentality of the church growth movement, and the view of the pastor as CEO and therapist in chief.

I feel reaching "teens" is a gift that some have,and some don't. I really see it as simple as that.

A little historical perspective, please. The church growth movement did not really get going until the 70s in any kind of way, the 80s were its peak of popularity. After that "seeker sensitivity" and being "purpose driven" kicked in. I sat under the guru of the movement, C. Peter Wagner, in seminary in '77. Youth pastors (at least in broadly evangelical churches) predated that by a loooooong time. My home church always had youth pastors when I was growing up in the 50s.

I suspect that the explanation is primarily twofold: size and culture.

1. Size: paid youth staff are a function of larger churches regardless of polity. My guess is that even Presbyterian congregations of 500+ in average attendance mostly have such animals on their staffs. It probably has more to do with a shift that took place in the church (at least in certain parts of the country) when any congregation of 150 attendance started adding paid music and youth staff. In part, this traces to shifting employment patterns after WWII, the role of working mothers, and an insufficiency of willing volunteers in an increasingly narcicisstic culture. In So. California, I know of one church with an average attendance of only 750 that had no less than 10 full-time pastors (M.Divs and D.Mins) on staff.

2. Culture: it is probably true that the more revivalistic tradition puts a premium upon formal youth ministry programs with paid staff than the Reformed tradition does. Couple this with the frequently smaller sizes of some of the Reformed congregations and you have an additional reason for the difference. Remember that there are some Reformed churches that would look askance at anyone who did not homeschool (witness some of the threads on the PB over the last few months) while many of the congregations I have been in would view homeschoolers with the same negative suspicion.

I agree the roots of this phenomenon run deeper than the last 30 years. "Born" is probably not the right word. "Nurtured" or "exploited" might be a better term.

Here's an article highlighting some of the historical background:

Youth Ministry Critique

I don't favor the expression "youth Pastor" because, by the very term, it implies that the youth have a Pastor separate than their families. That might be unintentional but it's communicated by the very term itself. Add to this that there is nowhere in Scripture where the qualifications for a "Youth pastor" are spelled out in Scripture.

I agree with others who note that you can specialize and segmentize your Church membership until you have a "ministry" for every group. We have too much atomization and segmentation of our Church already.

I'll also be brutally honest that the felt need for a youth pastor stems from basic Biblical ignorance on the part of Fathers and Mothers in an otherwise "unbroken" home. We're not simply talking about people who don't have either but we're talking about an attitude that "...let's drop off Billy and Susan so they can spiritually grow...."

I don't know how much clearer the Scriptures can be that a child's spiritual growth in the fear and admonition of the Lord is the responsibility of a father and mother. Within the Church's visible means toward that end, the parents fall under the spiritual leadership of the elders. You don't mess with God's ordinance and rend boys and girls from those God-given means, set them in their own authority structure to be taught by a "youth pastor". All that does is further impoverishes what parents are already confused about.

I don't know how many parents I've met that mourn the fact that their children have not continued in the faith - many, many Baptists and Presbyterians. Psalm 78 is a bitter pill for parents to accept but ought to serve as a warning for us all. We don't control the election of our kids but one sure way to facilitate their apostasy is to neglect our role or turn it over to another and assume the job is getting done.

And because this attitude that the Church must have a vibrant youth ministry in order to be a good Church, I've seen family after family leave our small Church here in Okinawa that teaches a true Gospel consciously turn away from sound doctrine because they place more value on the fact that there are programs for their kids. I say conscious because I've had more than a few men and women tell me that they believe the Gospel is taught more truly here but they want "...their kids to grow too...."

Uggh! Then teach them! Don't leave a Church that is training you how to train your kids for a Church with a youth pastor so they can do it for you!

Now, all that said, I'm not one of these guys that thinks that every bit of instruction and activity that surrounds a Church has to be done with the entire family. I don't have any problem with Sunday School classes, youth retreats, and the like. Frankly, however, you don't need a youth pastor to do that kind of stuff. You need parents who are interested in the lives of their kids to help out with those activities.

And, of course, the broken families will come. But extraordinary circumstances can never be the basis for overthrowing ordinary means and you don't create a Youth Pastor to be the father and mother and Pastor of the kids from broken families. A healthy Church with catechized adults and children that love the brethren and with widows and other elderly that love the brethren and all age groups that love the brethren will care for all the segments of the Church. Once we break down the walls of separation and stop trying to create ministry boutiques for every class of people then we can all start focusing on striving together as a body that recognizes all its members as part of the same Body and not different ministries with a need for a pastor in charge of each.

__________________
Rich
PCA, Northern VA
Student, New Geneva Theological Seminary

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Who is advocating turning over our kids to someone else? Like I said, our youth pastor has been a great assistance to the discipleship process we are overseeing in our kids lives. Further, I had a great Dad growing up, but God also used a godly "youth" pastor in my growth in grace.

Discipleship happens in the covenant community, it's not ONLY the parents responsibility. Our discipleship is enhanced by the various mentors God places in our lives, within the church. Certainly parents are the ones chiefly responsible, but we are a community.

I have many weaknesses. I hope my sons' exposure to their youth pastor and others will help them see people with strengths in the areas their father is weak. I could go on.

If this augmentation is so wise, then why is it not commended in the Scriptures themselves? In the thousands of years that the Proverbs have existed as well as Pastors to guide parents in their duties, why is the "youth pastor" never lauded as commendable?

I never stated that every youth pastor overthrows this order but the name itself implies something he is not: he is *not* the pastor for the youth. The children have a session of elders and that distinction ought to be noted not only in principle but also in whatever we call a person who may facilitate catechetical instruction.

Further, by way of direct institution, it is not the covenant community's responsibility to raise children. This implies that all have been given an immediate commission by God toward that end. Parents have been commissioned by God toward this end. Elders have been commissioned for the spiritual oversight of all. Responsibility cannot be delegated. Execution of the task can be delegated but responsibility always rests with those commissioned for the task.

At Maranatha Baptist Church we have two pastors, myself and another younger gentleman whom I love dearly. He works with the youth and leads the music program. He preaches also when I'm not there.

My main areas of responsibility are preaching, teaching and pastoral care.

We both share in the administration of the church.

We are both pastors.

So...no youth pastor. We're both "just" pastors.

It's working very well. God is blessing.

__________________
Ivan R. Schoen, B.A., M.A., M.L.I.S.
Pastor of Maranatha Baptist Church (SBC)
Poplar Grove, IL, USA
http://maranatha-sbc.org

So we're talking semantics here? If a Church has a second "pastor" who works with the youth and "fills in" on ocasion that would be fine with most of you? But if you call him a "youth pastor" all bets are off?

It isn't simply semantics, Adam. Rich's comment bears reading again:

Of necessity, IF (and I say IF for good reason) the church has specific "youth" activities then of necessity SOMEONE must take charge of them. It is NOT thereby necessary that one of these be labelled "youth pastor", and in my opinion such a labelling and task-orientation is divisive and not useful. It teaches the youth of the church that they have "someone to go to", someone who has "their needs" most in the forefront of their minds. They have someone SPECIFICALLY to serve THEM, as opposed to other elders of the flock. This just feeds the extreme selfishness of the current generation of youth, and I think both Biblically unwarranted and harmful in their development as adults.

If they are going to be brought up in the church, as contributing adult members, then both their parents and the church leadership structure need to work together in order to effect this development. Cordoning off the youth of the church with a young, newly-trained (if trained at all) "pastor", who's their "buddy" is highly detrimental to this goal.