My sister recently introduced me to some of T.S.Elliot's work. I've enjoyed what I've read so far, but was curious where he's coming from religiously/spiritually? (And assumed that someone here was bound to know or have a link!)

Here's some of my current favorite (the latter part of Ash Wednesday I):

And pray to God to have mercy upon us
And pray that I may forget
These matters that with myself I too much discuss
Too much explain
Because I do not hope to turn again
Let these words answer
For what is done, not to be done again
May the judgement not be too heavy upon us

Because these wings are no longer wings to fly
But merely vans to beat the air
The air which is now thoroughly small and dry
Smaller and dryer than the will
Teach us to care and not to care
Teach us to sit still.

Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death
Pray for us now and at the hour of our death.

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Jessica H.
Church: www.eopckent.org (OPC)
Work: www.uwmedicine.org/Facilities/Harborview/

Oh make this heart rejoice or ache; / Decide this doubt for me; / And if it be not broken, break -- / And heal it, if it be. ~William Cowper

My favorite is "The Journey of the Magi"
Eliot was a 1920s existentialist converted to a Monarchical, Anglo-Catholic stance (including becoming a British citizen). I do believe he was still on the Protestant side of the Anglo-Catholic movement, but nonetheless, he was an extremely high church traditionalist Anglican.

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Scott - Dallas, Texas - Faith OPC

"It is not what a lawyer tells me I may do; but what humanity, reason, and justice tell me I ought to do." - Edmund Burke

Let us go then, you and I, when the evening is spread out against the sky like a patient etherized upon a table . . .

What a great poet!

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Paul Weinhold, Colleyville Presbyterian Church

Currently Reading: Critical Theory Since Plato, Poetry by John Donne, Solon of Athens, and Wallace Stevens

1 Corinthians 8:2-3 "If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if anyone loves God, he is known by God."

One of my favorite poets. I used to try to write like him. Then I realized he got to go to Harvard in his early adult years...

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The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I love his poems: his fragmental word images are beautiful, they catch on your imagination and retain the sense of the things themselves; and the rhythms are very lovely. I think his 'notes' have done some harm to poetry, as his style which he could carry off because of being so saturated with great ancient literature (even his rhythms sound rather old and sad to me) but most imitators can't; but he expanded the notes which were originally to give credit for quotations/allusions, to fill up space for publication and afterwards felt badly for sending people on a wild goose chase, in search of structure and symbolism where there was none. Having a user's manual and reading a poem like a message that has to be decoded is simply silly, I think: I was relieved to find out he didn't really mean it. I haven't read much biographical material but from reading his poems and some plays and listening to other people talk/write about him, I picked up that he was very sympathetic to Roman Catholicism (I thought he was a Roman Catholic, but it makes more sense for him to have been an Anglican), and yes, very stiffly high church, a conviction he seems perhaps to have held as a convicted high cultural elitest?

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Heidi
Indianapolis, Indiana

Patience must dwell with Love, for Love and Sorrow
Have pitched their tent together here:
Love all alone will build a house tomorrow,
And sorrow not be near. -Christina Rossetti

Does anyone understand The Waste Land ? I know it's supposed to be a lament over the fragmented aimlessness of modernism but how so is beyond me.

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*Peter Gray* Elkins Park RPCNA

"Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. " Mk 9:24
"The greatest thing we can desire, next to the glory of God, is our own salvation; and the sweetest thing we can desire is the assurance of our salvation. In this life we cannot get higher than to be assured of that which in the next life is to be enjoyed. All saints shall enjoy a heaven when they leave this earth; some saints enjoy a heaven while they are here on earth." Joseph Caryl

Eliot supposedly said in an interview that it was structureless, and that he wasn't even bothering whether he understood what he was saying.

Can you access this link?

(edit: I don't know if it's correct but I like his poetry best when I read it like scenes on a roadtrip flashing past. You get a few overall impressions, you get a sense of motion and a lot of beautiful, significant scenes turning out of and back into it. Like this morning, a row of trees with orange crowns and all their leaves scattering down over the road. I don't understand that either.)

Heidi . . . I like how you put it. And I'm glad that maybe they aren't meant to be analyzed! To me they seem kind of like impressionistic paintings - the closer you analyze them, the blurrier it becomes, but they're quite nice if you just step back and get the feel for the whole thing.

I wrote a paper on The Waste Land in college. I'm not an Eliot expert, but my prof liked the paper.

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Andrew

One of my favorite Dylan lines from Desolation Row...

Ezra Pound and T.S. Elliot fighting in the captain's tower, while calypso singers laugh at them and fishermen hold flowers...

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The Piper will lead us to reason...

Rick Larson
Hope Christian and Missionary Alliance Church
Apple Valley, MN.

I wonder if it isn't somewhat intuitive to read them that way? I mean intuitive unless you're in an appreciation class where they force you at first contact to be looking for something else (I didn't even realize there were whole systems of symbolism - mostly sexual - built up out of Prufrock and the mermaids and the seaweed red and brown and whatnot when I first read it). Incidentally if the Eliot quotes about writing without structure and even without meaning are accurate, I was wondering whether he hasn't had some influence on post-modernism? Of course that's a bit offset by the fact that he seems to have accidentally set everyone is looking for symbolic coherence and structure even though he says there was none.

One of my faves!! He was a High Churchman. He described himself as "classical in literature, royalist in politics, and Anglo-Catholic in religion". You should try to read his

The Idea of a Christian Society

Amazon

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Richard
CofE
UK

I studied under the poet Richard Hugo. He was always very sceptical about trying to analyze poets like Eliot.

In discussing the meaning of poets, he would often say, "be careful about the poet who says 'I love you'. You never know if he means it or just likes the sound of the words."

Another anecdote involves Robert Frost, who was asked about the message behind "A Road Not Taken." Was it a reference to his choice of career or a major life decision?

He responded with a shrug that he was walking in the woods once and saw a fork in the road. He thought it would make a good poem.

Paul, sometimes Prufrock makes my hair stand on end. "And in short, I was afraid."

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Raymond Victor Bottomly
Providence Reformed Baptist Church, Tacoma, WA

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

You may also like Robert Southey (one of the Lake Poets) and this is his major political piece.

You may also like Swinburne if you like sound. If he means something by it, I think it's best overlooked.

Vic, Prufrock seems to run around and around through my head (but then Lauren is often quoting it and that may help the effect.) You see him so vividly. And he has his socks pulled all the way up.

Ruben wanted to have this text from Eliot printed on our wedding invitations:

This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.

(we had a verse from Jeremiah instead.)

I'm glad you went with Jeremiah.

I grow old, I grow old ...

I have read Prufrock more then any other, hundreds of times, and I still love it. I find myself quoting fragments of lines in conversation, every once in a while someone will give me the next line.

We shall go now you and I...

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Kevin Rogers
Sovereign Community Church, PCA
Moncton NB

BTW anyone (else) like the "cat poems"? They are always the first poetry I read aloud to my children. They can nearly all do the gumby cat from memory now.

hilarious, but it's been a while.

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

Love those cat poems! I think Eliot was the first guy to sample stuff, as he did in The Wasteland. Consider it 1920's rap, maybe? (Eliot would hate that!)

I have virtually no experience with poetry. You guys are making me jealous. Where should someone start who needs to aquire some poetry appreciation? The Psalms are the only poetry I have any experience with.

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Traci
Lynnwood OPC
"I have taken all my good deeds, and all my bad deeds, and cast them through each other in a heap before the Lord, and fled from both, and betaken myself to the Lord Jesus Christ, and in him I have sweet peace."--David Dickson

R.Vic, I agree that Prufrock is neither necessarily (nor even probably) autobiographical nor optimistic. Still, I consider it a great poem.

Just start reading. Get a few books of popular poets and begin to read them. T.S. Elliot is of course a great place to start. You might want a couple to try a couple or three at a time Frost, Alden Nowlen, Yeats all of these are "accessable". Avoid "harder" works/authors such as Ezra Pound until you feel a bit more comfortable with the whole thing.

Remember to read aloud. Poetry is about the sound of the words. So you should hear them when you read them. This is doubly true of older poety (i.e. Psalms), remember that "silent reading" is a very recent innovation.

Try to read slowly and much less then if you were reading prose. If I am reading poetry I might only read a few pages in an hour. Often reading the same poem more then once.

Enjoy yourself. If you don't like something, try an other author or an other work by the same author. Just start.

I should add this, don't try to "get it". Poetry is not a code and it is not your job to solve the riddle. Sometimes there is a "deep meaning" more often there is only a shadow of an image. Read "the Journey of the Magi" to see what i mean.

Unfortunately my voice (I am still accused of sounding like a child: I can't sing and I can't do dramatic reading) ruins the sound. I have to read them aloud in my head.

I think it's important to read what you like. You'll like more the more you read; whereas if you try to make yourself appreciate something you don't, you might like less the more you read. You can get a collection book and skim through and find out what you want to read more of. Christina Rossetti is a Christian poet you may like: her pieces are very rewarding in their Christian thought, and very rhythmic and beautiful. One of my favorites:

None other Lamb, none other Name,
None other Hope in heaven or earth or sea,
None other Hiding-place from guilt and shame,
None beside Thee.

My faith burns low, my hope burns low,
Only my heart’s desire cries out in me
By the deep thunder of its want and woe,
Cries out to Thee.

Lord, Thou art Life tho I be dead,
Love’s Fire Thou art however cold I be:
Nor heaven have I, nor place to lay my head,
Nor home, but Thee.

(P.S. In case you're interested here's a website that has more information about Rossetti. Her brother Dante Gabriel was also a superb poet.)

Heidi, thanks for the link to the Annotated Waste Land. Andrew, if your paper is available I would like to read it.

Kevin, interesting comment about reading aloud. I think I remember hearing recently about how St Ambrose reading silently astonished his contemporaries.

This is a reference to the "Hail Mary." He is calling on Mary's intercession.

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Chris Stamper
Park Cities PCA
(Dallas, TX)

Here is a good place to start - the Poetry Archives Top Poems

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-JD

Sure thing, Peter, I'll send you a pm.

Kipling is an eminently readable poet. I don't think modern poets are the best introduction to poetry. For one thing many of them were experimenting: for another, many of them are not worth much.

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Ruben
Moderator
F.P.C.I.
Indiana

Vanities and disguises have covered us, and thereby we are naked; licenciousness hath inflam'd us, and thereby we are frozen; voluptuousness hath fed us, and thereby we are sterved, the fancies and traditions of men have taught and instructed us, and thereby we are ignorant.
John Donne

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Calvinistas Conversando
Teología en Mexico
The Howling Wilderness

Thanks to you all for the help.