The PuritanBoard - Federal Vision/New Perspectives http://www.puritanboard.com/ Discussion of the various innovations regarding justification (New Perspective on Paul, Federal Vision, Shepherdism) en Sat, 21 Nov 2009 00:08:17 GMT vBulletin 60 http://www.puritanboard.com/images/retro/misc/rss.jpg The PuritanBoard - Federal Vision/New Perspectives http://www.puritanboard.com/ <![CDATA[Help with Norman Shepard's Theology]]> http://www.puritanboard.com/f77/help-norman-shepards-theology-55082/ Thu, 05 Nov 2009 15:31:25 GMT This is porbablly old hat and been answerd many times before. But I am curentlly involved in a discuson with my Pastor over the Theology of Normon Shepard. We have exchanged many Emails I have sent him numrous critcal articles on Shepard's theology the Reformed Church of the United States report on Shepard. And numrous other articles and he constintlly says I see nothing wron gwith Shepard's theology I even agree with him. My pasotr just sees this as some provencal debate inReformedTheology about Covenant. I know this is a serious issue but I dont know what to do or what I could say or do to show him how dangirous Sheperd's theology isbecuse he sees nothing wrong with it any advice or sources I could use or whatI could say thanks in Advance ]]> Federal Vision/New Perspectives Parsifal23 http://www.puritanboard.com/f77/help-norman-shepards-theology-55082/ Our Works and the Final Judgment http://www.puritanboard.com/f77/our-works-final-judgment-54950/ Mon, 02 Nov 2009 19:09:35 GMT I'm trying to wrap my head around the final judgment and I'm having a hard time. I'm getting different answers. It seems there are two options in Reformed tradition:
  1. Our life is judged in order to determine if we are going to heaven or hell
  2. Our life is judged to determine our level of rewards

Defenders of #1 say that our lives, our deeds, are judged on the last day in order to determine if we are united with Christ. Here are some examples:

Quote:
when we stand before Christ we will be judged according to our deeds in this life. 'For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad" (2 Cor 5:10). [he also cites Matt 16:27 and Rev 22:12]... Is the aim of this judgment to declare who is lost and who is saved, according to the works done in the body? Or is the aim of this judgment to declare the measure of your reward in the age to come according to the works done in body? The answer of the New Testament, if you interpret carefully, is: both. Our deeds will reveal who enters the age to come, and our deeds will reveal the measure of our reward in the age to come."
Quote:
"How then can I say that the judgment of believers will not only be the public declaration of our differing rewards in the kingdom of God, according to our deeds, but will also be the public declaration of our salvation - our entering the kingdom - according to our deeds? The answer is that our deeds will be the public evidence brought forth in Christ's courtroom to demonstrate that our faith is real. And our deeds will be the public evidence brought fourth to demonstrate the varying measures of our obedience of faith. In other words, salvation is by grace through faith, and rewards are by grace through faith, but the evidence of invisible faith in the judgment hall of Christ will be a transformed life."
Quote:
"The parable of the talents in Luke 19:12-27 teaches the same thing... What this parable teaches is the same thing Paul taught, namely, that there are varying degrees of reward for the faithfulness of our lives. But it also moves beyond that and teaches that there is a loss not only of reward, but of heaven, for those who claim to be faithful but do nothing to show that they prize God's gifts and love the Giver. That's the point of the third servant who did nothing with his gift. He did not just lose his reward, he lost his life.... The second purpose of the judgment is to declare openly the authenticity of the faith of God's people by the evidence of their deeds. Salvation is owned by faith. Salvation is shown by deeds. So when Paul says (in 2 Cor 5:10) that each '[will be recompensed...according to what he has done,' he not only means that our rewards will accord with our deeds, but also our salvation will accord with our deeds.

Why do I think this? There are numerous texts that point in this direction. For example, Paul refers to the 'revelation of the righteous judgment of God,' and then says, '[God] will render to every man according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality [he will render] eternal life; but to those who... do not obey the truth... [he will render] wrath and indignation." In other words, the judgment is according to what a person has done. But here the issue is explicitly "eternal life" versus "wrath and indignation" (Romans 2:5-8)....
...In other words, when these deeds are exposed at the judgment as a person's way of life, they will be the evidence that their faith is dead and he will not be saved. As James said, 'Faith without works is dead' (James 2:26). That is what will be shown at the judgment. ... In other words, the way one lived will be the evidence whether one passes through judgment to life or whether one experiences judgment as condemnation."
Defending the second view are the following:
Five Arguments Against Future Justification According to Works - Reformation21
Five Arguments Against Future Justification According to Works (Part II) - Reformation21
Judgment of Believers in the Westminster Standards - Reformation21 Blog
45. The Necessity of Good Works Unto Salvation Considered.

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I simply cannot understand how #1 is consistent with justification through faith alone. I do not understand how we can be united with Christ through faith alone if our works are necessary to connect us to Christ as well. I find Gill's essay very helpful (though he doesn't specifically address the final judgment). Can anyone help me understand? ]]> Federal Vision/New Perspectives brandonadams http://www.puritanboard.com/f77/our-works-final-judgment-54950/ Does NPP/FV lead to Catholicism? http://www.puritanboard.com/f77/does-npp-fv-lead-catholicism-54871/ Fri, 30 Oct 2009 18:57:36 GMT An article in Christianity today had some interesting quotes about NPP/FV and the road to Roman Catholicism: Not All Evangelicals and Catholics Together | Christianity Today | A Magazine of Evangelical Conviction... An article in Christianity today had some interesting quotes about NPP/FV and the road to Roman Catholicism:

Not All Evangelicals and Catholics Together | Christianity Today | A Magazine of Evangelical Conviction

"I have no doubt that the New Perspective and Federal Vision have had an effect on the Protestant-Catholic debate," Beckwith told Christianity Today. "I have met several former evangelical Protestants who have told me that Wright's work in particular helped them to better appreciate the Catholic view of grace."

Referring to former-protestant and blogger Taylor Marshal:

"Marshall said he speaks with new Catholic converts every month, about half of whom have been "deeply influenced" by Wright.

'If you buy into Wright's approach to covenantal theology, then you've already taken three steps toward the Catholic Church. Keep following the trail and you'll be Catholic,' said Marshall".

What do you think of this? Granted that not everyone who subscribes to the FV will end up at Rome, is there really a credible connection here? If so, why? ]]> Federal Vision/New Perspectives louis_jp http://www.puritanboard.com/f77/does-npp-fv-lead-catholicism-54871/ Help with new book on FV in the PCA. http://www.puritanboard.com/f77/help-new-book-fv-pca-54859/ Fri, 30 Oct 2009 14:41:49 GMT I found this link about a new book on FV. Book Review: Can the Presbyterian Church in America be Saved? LuxLucet (http://luxlucet.wordpress.com/2009/10/30/can-the-presbyterian-church-in-america-be-saved/) The author is named Sean Gerety.... I found this link about a new book on FV.

Book Review: Can the Presbyterian Church in America be Saved? LuxLucet

The author is named Sean Gerety. Using the search on PB, I noticed it appears that he may have been a poster on this website. His status says (Inactive).

Has anyone read this book or would you recommend it?

Thanks. ]]> Federal Vision/New Perspectives Soonerborn http://www.puritanboard.com/f77/help-new-book-fv-pca-54859/ FV view on baptism vs. Anglican view. http://www.puritanboard.com/f77/fv-view-baptism-vs-anglican-view-54719/ Mon, 26 Oct 2009 19:04:31 GMT I found this article on a previous PB thread regarding Anglican baptism: Anglican Faith - Baptism (http://www.christchurchanglican.org/ang_topix/baptism.html) The 3rd paragraph reads: By baptism, a person is made a child of God, becomes a... I found this article on a previous PB thread regarding Anglican baptism:

Anglican Faith - Baptism

The 3rd paragraph reads:

By baptism, a person is made a child of God, becomes a member of Christ’s Body, is cleansed and reborn in the Spirit. He is not “converted” at that moment, does not become by a conscious act of human will a follower of Christ. What he does get is a clean slate and access to God’s grace, to use or not as he himself determines from that moment forward. He may choose not to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he has been given the key to that kingdom at that moment, to use if he will.

From the Joint FV Profession, they state the following on baptism:

The Sacrament of Baptism
We affirm that God formally unites a person to Christ and to His covenant people through baptism into the triune Name, and that this baptism obligates such a one to lifelong covenant loyalty to the triune God, each baptized person repenting of his sins and trusting in Christ alone for his salvation. Baptism formally engrafts a person into the Church, which means that baptism is into the Regeneration, that time when the Son of Man sits upon His glorious throne (Matt. 19:28).

My question:

Is the FV view on baptism very similar to the Anglican view. Both seem to put emphasis on salvation being equated to human faithfulness. And both positions from I what I read seem to imply that a person obtaining real grace can fall away for apostasy.

or am I way off in my thinking? ]]> Federal Vision/New Perspectives Soonerborn http://www.puritanboard.com/f77/fv-view-baptism-vs-anglican-view-54719/ Probably good news http://www.puritanboard.com/f77/probably-good-news-54708/ Mon, 26 Oct 2009 11:34:04 GMT Something from the Aquila Report Siouxlands Presbytery Sustains Complaints, Answers Overture... Something from the Aquila Report

Siouxlands Presbytery Sustains Complaints, Answers Overture

for those who've been following the Siouxlands Presbytery case

Quote:
The Presbytery of the Siouxlands met for a called meeting on October 20, in Watertown, S.D. to hear two complaints and an overture.

The complaints concerned the Presbytery’s actions at its stated meeting in September. The complainants alleged that the Presbytery erred in several areas, most importantly in finding “no strong presumption of guilt in any area” of views of TE Greg Lawrence concerning the “so-called Federal Vision.”

The Presbytery “repented of its hasty actions” and formed a new committee to further investigate the views of TE Lawrence and report its findings and recommendations at the next called meeting in January of 2010.
]]> Federal Vision/New Perspectives TimV http://www.puritanboard.com/f77/probably-good-news-54708/