Bill,
I don't think I was clear enough in my response. Sorry about that. And it was not just to respond to you that I wrote, but also to Randy and to Anthony. Your direct question is did respond to at the end.
I too am not addressing mode of baptism-sprinkling, dunking, etc.
"What TYPE of baptism is Paul writing about?" i.e Spirit or water, is what I was trying to address.
And what I said was: I don't think, the Presbyterian doesn't think, it much
matters how one answers that question. Personally, I don't think Paul was self-consciously separating or distinguishing those ideas in his head when he wrote those words. From the God-ward vantage point, all is perfect and effectual what the Spirit does when he baptizes; and Paul is representing that
perfect work of God under the
imperfect actions of the church, when he says "We are all baptized into one body."
Some of you are questioning (or just wondering about) my, and the Westminster divines, usage of 1Cor12:13 as a prooftext for the notion that (water) baptism joins one to the (visible) church,
because this passage allegedly says nothing about water, but is
only addressing spiritual matters. But from the standpoint of WCF ecclesiology, the question is: has the church, in following the Lord's commands for this imperfect era, done its duty in representing the perfect?
If so, then Paul can be (and I say is) speaking about the Spirit's work, but as it is represented by the tangible church that we see right here in front of us. Holy Spirit's act joins us to the invisible church; the church's act joins us to the visible church. Which tangible outworkings of gift-giving seem to me to be the point of that chapter.
I don't think baptists, generally, operate on the basis of the same ecclesiology. They do not think of water baptism as joining them to anything, but as a personal witness. They view "the church" almost entirely under the aspect of the "spiritual" and invisible, even going so far as sometimes to say that the church on earth is really just a society of professors.
So, I said, I am quite certainly and self-consciously, bringing presuppositions to the text--as does everyone--in this case, presuppositions about ecclesiology. It is not a question of bringing "nothing" to the text, and somehow letting it speak in a "bare" fashion, that we then reverentially submit to. It is part of a complex, and we all have, therefore, a harmonized or unharmonized theology. The texts shape our theology, even as we come at them from an established position. If the tensions get too strong, hopefully we will have the sense to "give in" in favor of the truth.
Peace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Jersey Baptist  Bruce,
My first question is not the mode of baptism in 1 Corinthians 12:13. I know very well what it says. But for the purpose of this thread I asked you what type of baptism Paul was writing about. Why? Bob's OP was about water baptism. I assume this because he referred to it as a sacrament. Randy asked the following question: Quote: |
I would like a citation from Scripture that signifies that we belong to God's people because we are baptised. Just asking.....
| You responded with: Quote: |
Here's a prooftext from the original WCF: 1Co 12:13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
| Because of that exchange I wanted to clarify what type of baptism you were referencing. That was my only intent. Quote: |
It isn't "simple" for our side to talk about baptism. Because, in passages like 1 Cor. 12, our first question is NOT "what kind of baptism is this--is it Spirit baptism, or is it water baptism?" As if getting that right, will then help us then to interpret the passage properly. That's what I would call the "simple" approach, and its simply inadequate.
| Bruce, what are you going on about? The passage is about spiritual gifts; where they come from, their purpose and how they are to function in the body. Baptism is not an issue, except (v. 13) to remind the saints that it is by the Spirit that we are part of the body. IMHO the rest of your post is slanted to respond to an argument of what type of baptism is being taught in 1 Cor. 12:13. As I stated previously, I am quite at peace with what the passage teaches. Quote: |
So, to answer Bill, I disagree that v13 is only relevant to the mystical body. It also describes that body in its visible, earthly expression.
| Bruce, if you're describing the physical outworking of spiritual gifts (which is what the chapter, and following, is about), I concur. But Spirit baptism is "mystical", or better, invisible as displayed in regeneration. |