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austinbrown2 · #14 (**permalink**) 05-04-2008, 11:09 PM

In response to my pointing out that people respond with point two (Each person must decide whether it seems right in their own eyes... you respond with:

<<<<<<<<<"Whether there is a jump involved is the heart of the question. You mention rape and child abuse, assuming that they are equated with the "sorcery" found in games such as D&D. I, on the other hand, don't believe that the Old Testament is referring to casting ice bolts, fireballs, healing spells, and weapon enchantments when it denounces sorcery as an abomination. If anything, my conscience would probably not permit me to play as a Necromancer, but other than that, I think you need to show that the "magic" in these games is the kind of thing that the OT is denouncing. I would assume, however, that it's talking about raising the dead, putting curses on people, etc.">>>>>>>>>>

Well, sure, tossing lightning bolts carries less weight than as say, summoning a shaman, or scrying, or utilizing mana (which is a common resource in most games) or playing as a necromancer (Like in Warcraft 3). But nevertheless, if a sorcerer is the one casting a spell, then surely there is a remote resemblance to real sorcerers, right? And when talking about Magic the Gathering, there are plenty of cards that raise a creature from the dead, so to speak. And there are cards that curse a creature in some sense (or simply obliterate them, which is different).

How much these things resemble that which the OT denounces, I can't say for sure, for I'm not very familiar with what Moses meant. Of course, I read about the witch and Saul, Pharaoh's magicians, etc., and gain some kind of idea. But the basic idea is trying to utilize power apart from God, or tapping into pagan sources for some supernatural benefit. Surely these game emulate that, at least to some degree, or at least, by the very similarity of terms (socerery, etc.) share some semblance. Don't you think?

You asked, >>>>>>>"I think I understand what you're saying but could you explain the bolded sentence for me? Also, you have asserted a "prima facie collaboration" (whatever that is). How can you prove that there must be one?"<<<<<<<<

Sorry about the prima facie collaboration talk. It's not very clear. My point was this: Some want to think of this magic as simply fantasy. Fair enough. But this fantasy surely shares a similtude to pagan realities. And to prove that point, I named a few things like scrying, like mana, like enchantments, like the very word sorcery and the very terminology of casting spells. In other words, there is a face value connection with the pagan realities that are bad. The very adoption of the language in connection with certain elements that can't be totally emptied of a specific meaning (Like scrying or raising dead creatures) thereby makes an unavoidable connection. Or at least that's what I'm driven by logic to think.

I suppose I can't prove that there must be a connection, but unless one plays the role of postmodernistic relativism with language, then there appears to be a face value correlation. And I suppose it works the other way. One can't be sure that there isn't, and hence doubt and hence "If doubt throw it out."

Lastly, you said, >>>>>>"Well, if you really want my opinion, I believe that it's objectively a matter of liberty, which would mean that it's not sinful. What you need to do, I think, is prove that the activity in these games, in every case is the same thing that we find denounced in the scriptures. Words can sometimes be the source of equivocation, and we don't want to build an unscriptural wall based on an equivocation. For example, we use the word "magic" to describe the card tricks that the owner of this board does for a hobby, but I assume that you wouldn't label this as abominable sorcery (or would you?)."<<<<<<<<

Well, no. I don't think illusion is sorcery. But yes, we sometimes call it magic. Do you therefore think that the Christian is on safe ground to constantly think of magical elements in games as different from the reality, and so very different from the reality that any real relational link is essentially nonexistant? If so, would that thereby mean emptying pretty specific words of their meaning? Take for example necromancer. You shy away from that. But what about a black card in MTG or an Undead Scourge army in Warcraft 3 or a Warhammer army/character that raises creatures from the dead, to name a few? The very concepts associated with necromancy bleed out into quite a few relevant specifics in games. Or maybe I should say that the acts of a sorcerer or necromancer bleed out. So really, is there a difference between raising something from the dead in generic terms or using a crystal ball to forsee something or see an area on a map outside normal human vision and the reality condemned in Scripture? Surely the sum result/effect closely mirrors the forbidden reality.

Cheers my fellow RPCNA man, and blessings.

Austin

P.S. I spoke with my pastor and an elder I respect. Both seemed to speak about the issue as being somewhat grey, although both stressed the time wasting element of it all (which is truly a serious threat with these things).