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Originally Posted by VirginiaHuguenot  .......I would attribute the failure of Presbyterians to hold on to the achievements of Westminster and establish them nationally in England in such a way that it could last, not to ecclesiastical challenges but to the political alignment of Independents with Oliver Cromwell, and the subsequent division of Puritans between Protesters and Resolutioners, followed by the return of the King -- in short, to political influences, rather than Independents in the Assembly thwarting the majority of Presbyterians. .... |
Andrew my reference was to the failure of the Assembly in achieving one of the tasks committed to it by Parliament viz. an agreed scriptural doctrine of church government for the purposes of uniformity. This was mainly due to the staunch defence of Independency by the famous 5. I am not suggesting that the political situation played no part in defeating the establishment of Presbyterian polity. But to be fair to the Independents it is not as though the Presbyterians were politically neutral in seeking to achieve the establishment of their polity in England! Let's not forget that the Scots army supported Charles I and also that Charles II came to power on the back of a promise to the Scots to restore Presbyterianism - this was the only reason the Scots supported him .. but this political attempt to establish Presbyterianism also failed!
Have a blessed Lord's day!
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Originally Posted by shackleton Are we talking Presbyterian in the sense we have today from elders all the way up to GA, or are we talking presbyterian just in the sense of elder run local church government. I have heard even the independents of the same period were elder run and were a lot like Presbyterian churches nowadays but nothing like the Independent churches of nowadays. |
You are right that Independency/Congregationalism is elder led - the difference is that we do not deny that the membership also has a role. There is a fine balance maintained in the Scriptures between the roles of the membership and the overseers. Being elder led is not therefore exclusively a Presbyterian notion.
The fairly modern corruption of Independency/Congregationalsim which insists on a democracy in all church decisions was a novelty that many wrote against - e.g. John Angel James etc. but had persisted because "people power" is a rather intoxicating notion!