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Originally Posted by JTDyck  Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilgrim From my point of view those who argue that lying may be sometimes justifiable may sometimes appear to have a point, as with the situation contemplated in the OP. But IMO those who give a lot of thought to situations in which lying is justifiable often end up justifying it in cases where it is clearly not. I don't see how coming up with a theology of "godly lying" gets us anywhere but Fletcher's Situation Ethics and moral relativism.  | Amen! The law is the law. And the law is exceeding broad. And sin is the transgression of the law. Whenever we open doors to excuse sin, we place ourselves in danger of sinning presumptuously.
Sin complicates life. God always sees in black and white, but Satan wants us to believe that we live in some kind of a grey area in between |
You are absolutely right: it truly is God that sees in black and white. And we all try to, but we often disagree on whether God interprets something as black or white. In the case of Rahab, she deceived others into thinking that the spies had left that town and gone on to another. Black or white? What about when Jesus himself acts as if he is leaving a town and going on to another? White, obviously. Was Jesus expressing true facts by his actions? No, that wasn't his intent. His body language was meant to accomplish the opposite of the "facts" it expressed:
"So they drew near to the village to which they were going.
He acted as if he were going farther, but they urged him strongly, saying, 'Stay with us, for it is toward evening and the day is now far spent.'
So he went in to stay with them." (Luke 24:28-29)
Even if I am wrong about the Rahab passage, the type of deception that Christ uses to get the disciples to invite him in is completely just and no sin at all. This tells me that there is a justifiable form of deception. A type of deception which is about accomplishing the truth, not meant to express true facts. Like acting as if one is going to another town in order to do the opposite. Or like telling Ninevah they'll be destroyed in 40 days when those are not true facts in order to accomplish the truth of repentance in them.
It is true that things are black and white in God's eyes. Day and night in God's eyes. God knows if we are hiding Jews. But I still think it is justified to make white appear to be black sometimes. It is justified to make day appear as it it is night:
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Make your shade like night at the height of noon; shelter the outcasts; do not reveal the fugitive; let the outcasts of Moab sojourn among you; be a shelter to them [heb: be "a hiding place"]from the destroyer." (Is 16:3-4)
In other words I currently believe it was just of Joshua to deceive by the use of spies, I think it was just of Rahab to deceive by making the spies appear to be not there but merely piles of flax, I believe that it was just of Rahab to act as if the spies had left the city and gone on to another, I believe it was just of God to say he was going to destroy Ninevah in 40 days even when he was planning on doing the opposite, I believe it was just of Samuel to deceive by telling a half-truth, I believe it was just of Jesus to act like he was going to another city when it was his intent to do the opposite. I believe it was just of those in WWII who made rooms that deceived by appearing to be merely walls. I believe it is just to deceive our enemies by dressing up our soldiers in camouflage clothing that says, "I am not here, I am just vegetation" instead of the far less deceptive British red coats... etc.
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Originally Posted by JTDyck I have actually heard men use the "war" analogy to say "We're at war with Arminians, so we don't owe them the truth" or "We're at war with the government, we don't owe them the truth, so we don't have to be honest on our tax returns or other govt forms." They could well end up being at war with everyone and become chronic liars.
Beware the leaven of sin. |
It is obviously true that some people try to justify sins they are committing using justification that only applies to something else altogether. But this doesn't make the war analogy invalid. And it also seems like you are saying that all deception is leaven. So would you argue that we shouldn't use spies during wartime, or we shouldn't camouflage our troops to deceptively appear to be vegetation? Should we go the red-coat route or are some forms of deception justifiable?