The PuritanBoard - View Single Post - The Invisible / Visible Church Distinction

Contra_Mundum · #4 (**permalink**) 08-16-2007, 10:12 AM

Just a few comments on the paedobaptism issue brought up:

Paedobaptists (at least the confessional kind, who hold to Reformed theology) do not teach their baptized children: "You are united to Christ." This is a ridiculous fiction, a slander, and it would be better for credobaptists to figure out what Reformed paedobaptists actually believe before bandying this kind of thing about.

We tell our children: "BELIEVERS are united to Christ." Baptism symbolizes a great many things, all which are only "true" when combined with faith.

Do baptists allow for unregenerate church membership? If I pick a random "baptizing-upon-profession" church in my city, and walk in, what percentage of that church do you suppose will be unregenerate? Anywhere from 5%-95% sounds about right. It is the most silly, preposterous notion in the history of the church to say that a baptist church has a better chance of having a regenerate membership than a non-baptist church, based on nothing but their style and practice of baptism. Look around you! Where is the evidence for the claim that baptism-by-profession protects the church from an unregenerate membership?

Since I don't know what kind of sermons you have listened to on baptism, how many, who preached them, what the purpose of the sermon or lecture was, etc., I have no idea (simply because you have listed to presentations) how much you have been taught of a Confessionally Reformed paedobaptist position at all.

Beside which, you should listen to gospel preaching from these preachers, evangelistic preaching, preaching of regular sermons on a wide variety of subjects--before you make a judgment on whether or not their habit is calling people--from the YOUNGEST to the oldest--to repentance and faith.

That "promise" you keep hearing about in the messages you have listened to? Unless I miss my guess, that "promise" is first and foremost God's promise to save "all who put their faith in Christ." That is what a grown convert does, every time. He believes God's promise to save him, and in His provision of means for that salvation. It includes the promise from the Old Testament (to Abraham), "I will be God to you (who believe) and to your children after you (who believe)". And repeated in the New Testament (through Peter): "This promise is to you, and to your children...."

As far as touching on the issue of "intellectual assent", it is not the same as saving faith, but there is no saving faith in the absence of a receptive intellect. It may be rudimentary, but it is certainly there. A person needs SOMETHING to believe in.

We say to our children:
"God saves HIS people from their sins.
God's people believe his Word.
You belong to God's people,
because I am one of God's people,
and you belong to me.
God expresses his promise to you through me,
through your connection to me.
But, do you believe his Word?

"As your parent, I started out doing everything for you.
There was even a sense in which I believed God, for you.
As an infant, your intellect was present,
but unformed, and uninformed.
You only had the barest capacity to trust me.
But as you grow older, I do less and less for you.
I have taught you God's promises from the day you were born.
I have acted on God's promises to ME--
that he works by his Spirit and Word to regenerate a heart,
and make you able to receive these truths,
and believe them with all your heart.

"When you are old enough to go to the bathroom,
I shall no longer change your diaper.
When you are old enough to feed yourself,
I may no longer prepare your meals.
When you are old enough to work,
I can no longer work for you.
'He who will not work, shall not eat.'

"When you are old enough to understand this faith,
when you know enough to 'eschew the evil, and choose the good,'
I will believe those things for you no more.
You must either confess them yourself,
or you will 'fall away' (Mt. 24:10; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb. 3:12; 6:6),
you will be 'cut off from this people.'

"Your responsibility has been growing,
developing from your first day of life.
You cannot escape the effect of this bestowal,
this being born into a believer's house:
God promises it will be either the greatest blessing
anyone can know, or it will be the most frightful curse.
Do you believe his Word?"

Finally, as to touching on the True Visible Church: one thing for sure, you need to make an allowance for hypocrisy; and deeply hidden, secret, and even self-delusive hypocrisy at that. The point is that there is NO SUCH THING as the True Visible church, if by "True" you imply an infallible certainty in what you see. Because no one of us "looking on the outward appearance" can ever perfectly judge a heart. ALL our judgments are tentative and provisional, and must include a large dose of charity.