Quote:
Originally Posted by Contra_Mundum  LF,
I wasn't arguing against standards of modesty, or saying they lead to burkhas. But I will repeat that setting up a standard, and calling it a biblical norm, hence one that all people everywhere in all times must follow, will result in the very thing that you see NORMED in Islam. It's legislated in that religion. There's a common standard. In many places it is ignored, but not in traditional society. Why? Because sin is externalized. So you see it from Indonesia to Morrocco, and from there to western nations as well.
My argument is an argument against raising the "standard of decency" to the level of moral LAW. There may be a relative range of acceptability in Christian-dominant cultures, but that's what it will always be: a *range*.
The best form of "pressure" can be ingrained societal and cultural standards. They tend to be conservative, or tending in conservative directions anyway. OUR problem, as a society, is that we have forces at work attacking our cultural foundations, seeking to cast us adrift from history. OUR problems have a great deal to do with the elevation of the concept: "breaking rules," to the level of a philosophical first-principle. Those who are giving direction (aimless) to the culture are in a teeth-bared war with the past, with our past, especially Christianity, and with God. Only "envenomed hatred" can begin to describe the ruthlessness with which such leaders have engaged in their iconoclasm. Their goal is the humanistic religion.
If we as Christians go to battle over women in ankle-length skirts vs. knee-length, or men swimming shirtless vs. shirted, we are only acknolwledging that we are feeling the loss of wider cultural standards. By all means, let us set our own standards. But if the church up the street--sharing our mindset--sets it a bit differently, we have to be charitable to them. For only an unofficial, non-legislated broad culture-norm that grows from our combined committment and standards will reset the cultural bar. |
I agree with Bruce and Colleen in different ways.
I am with Colleen totally that the scriptures do lay out a standard and we would be wise to follow it and with Bruce that you can't make it LAW.
The standard is clearly laid out in the scriptures previously stated apart from the law. The Isaiah passage isn't in the law but clearly states what is nakedness and the fact that it is shameful.
Bruce is right that you can't make it normative in the sense that you demand it. You can point to it and say this is the principle that I am, because of conscience and conviction of the Holy Spirit, following. I also agree with what I think Bruce is saying (Bruce correct me if I am wrong here) in that you shouldn't judge a brother or sister about this type of thing not because you can't necessarily but that you shouldn't because everyones conscience has not been brought to the same place sanctification-wise yet.
I think ideally they will be brought there but for now whatever is not of faith is sin, right? If you demand things, even things like this where a principle is clearly laid out, you could cause a brother or sister to sin because they may do it from a wrong place heart-wise and conscience-wise and not because of faith. Faith that God's ways are perfect and that that is our goal, to be like Him. The goal is for people to be convicted by the Holy Spirit to do these things and then do them out of a spirit of faith and obedience to God and not to men. Not out of a spirit of legalism.
I hope that makes sense.
