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JohnV · #15 (**permalink**) 07-24-2005, 04:33 AM

Meg:

I'll try. I did not mean to give a whole account of the salvation process, but merely to put the before and after part into its temporal setting. So this entire thought is within the covenant, not outside of it.

The part about Federal Vision which I was pointing to was the part where justification becomes a faith plus works after the original justification. I'm no expert on FV, but I've noticed that these men tend to make two justifications: one at conversion, which is partial justification; and one at judgment, which is the overall justification. Since it is that the second one counts more heavily than the first, it follows, for them, that there must be a faith plus works according to the law. Because it is not what the gospel says, but is a subjective interpretation, it is hard to pin it down to this specific charge, since their defending of their views give first this meaning then that meaning to what they're saying.

But the point of my reference was not to suggest that FV was being argued for, but rather to give an example of the end result of separating the before and after, as the question would have it. To say that there is a before to law-keeping in being a Christian, and an after, is to suggest that becoming a Christian is not a law-keeping on its own. I am saying that "after" one becomes a Christian it is more a matter of keeping it more than there is one of not keeping it "before", but still a Christian. I was not talking about before becoming a Christian.

Before one is a Christian, then even if a person keeps the entire law whole, but has not faith, he is not keeping the law, since love for God with the whole heart, soul, and mind is the summary of that law. But as a person becomes a Christian, truly so, then it is because of the love that is kindled in his heart; which, though it may not as yet be accompanied by fuller knowledge of the law, is fulfilling the summary of that same law, by loving God with all the heart, soul, and mind. As one matures in faith, in faith-experience (through trials), and in knowledge of Christ and of God ( through reading and prayer ), one also matures in law-keeping. It is that he wishes to live for his Saviour with all his heart, not that he thinks that his works will win him anything on their own. They do win him something, for there is reward for faithfulness, but works are the result of an active faith.

Someone once remarked that, between opinion and knowledge, the more one knows with certainty and the less he merely opines, then the less he acts on faith. For, it was held, that faith belongs with opinion, not with sure knowledge. But of course our rejoinder to that is immediately that it is foolish not to believe and have full faith in what you know with certainty. And that is how we answer to those who think our faith is built upon our uncertain opinions, or beliefs that spring out of our own imaginations and limitations. Our faith comes from a God who communes with us through His Spirit and by His Word. But we do not know Him yet as fully as when we have lived under His guidance for many years; and not yet as fully then as when we shall behold Him face to face. In comparison one would say that he did not keep the law back then, not as he does now. But that is not how God sees it. For it is Christ's law-keeping from start to finish that earns us justification, not ours. So there is no real before and after in justification, except in our perception of our own sanctification. And our sanctification is being led by the Spirit, not by ourselves.

Marcos is quite right, I think, that law-keeping leads to more law-keeping. But that is because it is exactly the same as saying that love for Christ leads to more love for Christ. Therefore, the original love for Christ was also a law-keeping. We are no more justified after many years of service as we are at the start, for one is either justified or one is not; and it is by Christ's eternal merit, not our temporal merit, as if we had any. Marcos had to be referring to sanctification, for law-keeping is something that grows with faith.

[Edited on 7-24-2005 by JohnV]