[quote:f7188fdbd3][i:f7188fdbd3]Originally posted by webmaster[/i:f7188fdbd3]
[quote:f7188fdbd3]
I was just wondering why most Presbyterians who adopt the view that the condition of the Covenant of Grace is faith assume that you have to be a Covenant member to become a Covenant breaker?[/quote:f7188fdbd3]
You must be in the covenant to break it. Otherwsie you could say that little "Muwamba", the 3 day old child in the African bush, is a covenant breaker of the Gospel.
[quote:f7188fdbd3] Fo would it be proper to say that the atheist who though presented with the gospel but still rejects the Gospel does not become a Covenant breaker or would it be proper to say that they become a Covenant breaker if the terms of faith truely is the condition of the Covenant?
[/quote:f7188fdbd3]
It would be to say that they reject salvation, but are a covenant breaker of the covenant of works, right along side of Adam. For a Gospel Hypocrite, one who "joins a church, is baptized, etc." but is not saved, he formally takes on the covenant sign of the power of Christ (Genesis 3:15) but then reject it - sealing to himself the curses of the covenant, rather than its blessings. Not only is he a covenant breaker in Adam, which is will damn him, but he is not an enlightened hypocrit who will recieve greater damnation as a result of his rejection of the Son of God.
All men are breakers of the former (Adamic) but not all are breakers of the latter (New). [/quote:f7188fdbd3]
[b:f7188fdbd3] Thanks webmaster for the reply... for this was exactly what I was hoping for your answer reflects I think some hard study of the Presbyterian doctrine on this issue :bisou:
On a side note I have noticed that Hebrews 10:31 has been recently used as a proof text to support the doctrine of "New Covenant Breakers" and I can understand how a person could come to that conclusion using those verses but I myself do not think that this is a great verse to use because of a response I say given by a some what unorthodoxed by very well studied Reformed Baptist a while ago in one of the past threads, he wrote: [/b:f7188fdbd3]
[quote:f7188fdbd3][i:f7188fdbd3]Originally posted by TheonomyNZ[/i:f7188fdbd3]
[quote:f7188fdbd3][i:f7188fdbd3]Originally posted by -- [/i:f7188fdbd3]
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Show me anything in hebrews 10 that suggests any of "His people" will go to hell.
[/quote:f7188fdbd3][/quote:f7188fdbd3]OK, now did you notice the content of the question? Your repeated emphasis was that the term "His people" (or "my people"
was applied to people who were lost. Your claim was very clear and specific. God calls people "His people" in hebrews 10, and and some of "His people," according to hebrews 10, are not elect. So I asked you to show where, in Hebrews 10, non elect people are called "His people." As I read your last post, I see that you backed away, you didn't do it. (If you think you did, read on!)
[quote:f7188fdbd3]26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, [b:f7188fdbd3]and a fierceness of fire which [/b:f7188fdbd3] shall devour the adversaries.
28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses:
29 [b:f7188fdbd3]of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?[/b:f7188fdbd3]30 For we know him that said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense. And again,[b:f7188fdbd3] The Lord shall judge his people.[/b:f7188fdbd3]31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.[/quote:f7188fdbd3]OK, we're clear so far. People who have received a knowledge of the truth, and then rejected it, are in big trouble. Agreed fully. I'm still waiting to see where you see "His people" going to hell. You seem to think "the Lord will judge His people" refers to this. But if that is true, you have ignored the Old Testament passages where this quote comes from (and you think WE ignore the OT background!) In BOTH cases where the saying appears in the Old Testament, it refers not to punishment, but MERCY. let's look at them. the first example is in Deuteronomy 32. The LORD is saying that even though the people have rebelled in times past, and even though His anger was great against them, he will be kind to them. See verse 36:[quote:f7188fdbd3]The LORD will judge his people and have compassion on his servants when he sees their strength is gone and no one is left, slave or free.[/quote:f7188fdbd3]"Judge" does not always have the meaning you seem to think it does. It means "do justice," and in Deuteronomy it is about God defending His people against enemies. HOW will God do justice and have compassion on his people? See what follows IN CONTEXT, in verse 40-42:[quote:f7188fdbd3]I lift my hand to heaven and declare:
As surely as I live forever, when I sharpen my flashing sword and my hand grasps it in judgment, I will take vengeance on my adversaries and repay those who hate me.
I will make my arrows drunk with blood, while my sword devours flesh: the blood of the slain and the captives, the heads of the enemy leaders.[/quote:f7188fdbd3]the word trasnlated "judge" ([i:f7188fdbd3]din[/i:f7188fdbd3]) generally means "vindicate" or "plead the cause of someone." It does not generally mean condemn or punish, and it [i:f7188fdbd3]certainly[/i:f7188fdbd3] cannot mean that here. So in this quote from the Old Testament, does it refer to punishing "His people", or doing justice for "His people" by punishing those who are NOT His people? Look at the Old Testament context it comes from - you can see the answer right in front of you.
The phrase is used in one other place in the Old Testament, and it has the same meaning there - NOT a meaning of punishing people who are His people, but rather of doing justice and kindness to His people. Psalm 135:14[quote:f7188fdbd3]For the LORD will vindicate his people
and have compassion on his servants.[/quote:f7188fdbd3]While the NIV (rightly) gives "vindicate" as a translation, the Hebrew word is the same. God's act of "doing justice" for His people does not involve punishing [i:f7188fdbd3]them[/i:f7188fdbd3], but being merciful towards them.
So to warn the reprobate men among God's people in the New Testament by saying "the LORD will judge His people" - quoting the Old Testament, does not mean that some of His people will go to hell. You can only conclude that by refusing to take the Old Testament context of those words into account. It means that the godless in the visible church should fear greatly, since God is going to do justice for His people by taking care of those wicked men who are not his people and punishing THEM.
So while on a superficial reading your claims might look convicning to some people, they are not persuasive for anyone familar with the Old Testament.[quote:f7188fdbd3]Now, I would like to say that tertullian has said that these people are just professors, but they are ACTUAL people. Would Glenn agree? If not, explain.[/quote:f7188fdbd3]Of course they are actual people. What else would they be?[quote:f7188fdbd3] Is it hypothetical? If so, can you hypothetically be in the covenant and go to a hypothetical hell?[/quote:f7188fdbd3]Well wait just a second - you've begged the question. You job is to show that those people who have received a knowledge of the truth and rejected it ARE or WERE in covenant with God. You can't ever just assert it in this dialogue, since that's the very thing in dispute.[quote:f7188fdbd3]Furthermore, this is a quote out of Deutoronomy, which was spoken to OT Israel. OT Israel had non-elect in the covenant[/quote:f7188fdbd3]Yes, that's true. We've never disputed that. but it is bad logic to say:
1) This quote is in the Old Testament, and it was spoken to Israel
2) There were non elect people in God's covenant nation of Israel
3) Therefore there are non elect people in the New Covenant
It's bad logic because it doesn't take into account what the quote [i:f7188fdbd3]means[/i:f7188fdbd3]. Since in the Old Testament it isn't saying that the non elect of God's people will be punished (even though there were non elect people in israel), it does not work the way you would like it to.
[quote:f7188fdbd3]So, we can see that the baptist is on VERY shaky ground.on 1-30-2004 by paul manata] [/quote:f7188fdbd3]In light of the Old Testament evidence that you are now aware of, I would ask that you reconsider your argument, which is itself on terribly shaky ground.
In Christ
Glenn Peoples
(edited for typos)
[Edited on 1-30-2004 by TheonomyNZ] [/quote:f7188fdbd3]